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WYSIWTF working demo
Happy new year all!

Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
(pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.

For the impatient, add

document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');

to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
;-)
(I invite you to try my test article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )


Now, this is not "real" WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call "augmented
wikitext". You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
(currently quite limited) properties.

For this to work, wikitext is parsed into "augmented wikitext", which
is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will "just work" (TM),
except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)

The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
wikitext character (!) is its own <span> element, which might tax your
browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
feasible, but too much work for this demo.

Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
local or from Commons is one).


What I would like is some discussion about
* if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
* if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
throw at the general public
* if anyone is willing to help me with that

As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
supports it. Well, I can dream...

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
> What I would like is some discussion about
> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
> throw at the general public
> * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>
> As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
> end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
> supports it. Well, I can dream...

You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-level_editing, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing

Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I think it's not in SVN (yet).

Regards,
Jan Paul
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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On 1 January 2011 12:50, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:

> What I would like is some discussion about
> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go


The question is: can it be incrementally improved, new tags and ways
to deal with them etc, added as we go? Is it structured to make that a
reasonably straightforward thing to do?


- d.

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske
<magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:

> What I would like is some discussion about
> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
> throw at the general public
> * if anyone is willing to help me with that

I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
approach, I recommend one minor change:

* deactivate or hide or shrink the "read" and "edit" tab as they are
now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display.

Mathias

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mathias Schindler" <mathias.schindler@gmail.com>
> To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske
> <magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > What I would like is some discussion about
> > * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
> > perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
> > * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
> > throw at the general public
> > * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>
> I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
> approach, I recommend one minor change:
>
> * deactivate or hide or shrink the "read" and "edit" tab as they are
> now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display.

Are like hell.

Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing,
thank-you-very-much. Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's "power editors"
are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they want;
I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what they've
been doing.

Cheers,
-- jra

[1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track with
other similar statistics.

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mathias Schindler" <mathias.schindler@gmail.com>
>> To: "Wikimedia developers" <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 1, 2011 10:34:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Wikitech-l] WYSIWTF working demo
>> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Manske
>> <magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > What I would like is some discussion about
>> > * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
>> > perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
>> > * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
>> > throw at the general public
>> > * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>>
>> I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
>> approach, I recommend one minor change:
>>
>> * deactivate or hide or shrink the "read" and "edit" tab as they are
>> now obsolete or make the WYSIWTF tab the default display.
>
> Are like hell.
>
> Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG
> editing,
> thank-you-very-much. Good bet at least 30-50% of Wikipedia's "power
> editors"
> are very well versed in MWtext[1], and how to use it to get what they
> want;
> I wouldn't recommend making it hard for those people to keep doing what
> they've
> been doing.
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> [1] Yes, I've just made that statistic up, but I expect it will track
> with
> other similar statistics.

I'll admit to hating Wikia's new system, but so far this looks interesting.

Even there though you don't have to select it.

Fred Bauder



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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 3:43 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 January 2011 12:50, Magnus Manske <magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> What I would like is some discussion about
>> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
>> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
>
>
> The question is: can it be incrementally improved, new tags and ways
> to deal with them etc, added as we go? Is it structured to make that a
> reasonably straightforward thing to do?

I believe so, both for the parsing, where I actually have boolean
flags in the JavaScript to turn off, say, image parsing, which will
then just be rendered as wikitext, as well as for the display, where
the possibility of marrying my code to, say, the Usability
Initiative's template editor or multimedia assistant, has not escaped
me :-)

An easy example will be external links, which I just might implement
later today. Lists should be possible, tables a bit harder. HTML-like
tags, including <nowiki> and <ref>, are on the to-do-list, obviously.
Especially <ref>s could be collapsed like templates, which would again
improve readability significantly IMHO.

So, yes, I think this can deal with more current and future wiki
markup - no matter how complicated, it can catch the "safe" instances,
and just default to plain wikitext when in doubt.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:


> Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG editing,

my comment was in no way about the pros and cons of WYSIWYG editing
and the decision at Wikimedia to have its own turing complete language
for content. My comment was about this demonstrator which should have
a huge selection bias of non-haters :)

I reject the WYSIWYG concept itself much less then I dislike the
effects it has on humans who start to "make things look nice".

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
> I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
> approach, I recommend one minor change:

Retitle it WYSIFTW

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
Unfortunately I would say the thing is broken for me, insofar as
various keys (e.g. j,k,f,g,h,l) result in editor actions instead of
characters being inserted.

On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Magnus Manske
<magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Happy new year all!
>
> Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
> Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
> (pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.
>
> For the impatient, add
>
> document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
> src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');
>
> to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
> Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
> it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
> ;-)
> (I invite you to try my test article at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )
>
>
> Now, this is not "real" WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call "augmented
> wikitext". You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
> links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
> Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
> to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
> normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
> (currently quite limited) properties.
>
> For this to work, wikitext is parsed into "augmented wikitext", which
> is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
> you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will "just work" (TM),
> except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
> Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
> augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
> left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)
>
> The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
> at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
> write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
> wikitext character (!) is its own <span> element, which might tax your
> browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
> but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
> left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
> delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
> selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
> feasible, but too much work for this demo.
>
> Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
> template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
> a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
> instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
> local or from Commons is one).
>
>
> What I would like is some discussion about
> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
> throw at the general public
> * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>
> As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
> end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
> supports it. Well, I can dream...
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli <holtzermann17@gmail.com> wrote:

> I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
> approach, I recommend one minor change:
> Retitle it WYSIFTW


+1


- d.

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
Works for me (Mac, Chrome). Not tested anywhere else. Your OS/browser?



On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Joe Corneli <holtzermann17@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately I would say the thing is broken for me, insofar as
> various keys (e.g. j,k,f,g,h,l) result in editor actions instead of
> characters being inserted.
>
> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Magnus Manske
> <magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Happy new year all!
>>
>> Let me welcome you to this historical year (10 years of Wikipedia!
>> Wow!) with a working demo of WYSIWTF, a pure JavaScript attempt at
>> (pseudo-) WYSIWYG wikipedia editing.
>>
>> For the impatient, add
>>
>> document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
>> src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');
>>
>> to your vector.js, force-reload, and try any article, User, or
>> Wikipedia namespace page. Click the WYSIWTF tab, edit, and save (yes,
>> it does save. You are responsible for cleaning up if you make a mess
>> ;-)
>> (I invite you to try my test article at
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/test )
>>
>>
>> Now, this is not "real" WYSIWYG, but rather what I'd call "augmented
>> wikitext". You still edit wikitext, but some elements (headings,
>> links, images, and yes, template) are HTML-rendered for convenience.
>> Large templates are collapsed into the template name; double-click it
>> to show/hide the vast sea of parameters, which you then can edit like
>> normal wikitext. Likewise, double-click links or images to get
>> (currently quite limited) properties.
>>
>> For this to work, wikitext is parsed into "augmented wikitext", which
>> is then edited, and rewritten to normal wikitext upon save. Therefore,
>> you can still enter wikitext directly, and it will "just work" (TM),
>> except it won't show directly in its rendered form in the editor.
>> Likewise, lots of wikitext markup is currently not parsed into an
>> augmented form; bold/italics, lists, and tables, among others, are
>> left untouched. I can do only so much for a demo :-)
>>
>> The editor component is by far the weakest part of this demo. I looked
>> at CKedit, but it seemed too much work to adapt it for a demo than to
>> write my own editor, which I then did. To make my life easier, each
>> wikitext character (!) is its own <span> element, which might tax your
>> browser. Medium-sized articles work fine in Chrome on my MacBook Pro,
>> but YMMV. You can click into the text to position the cursor, move it
>> left and right with the cursor keys (not up or down!), type text,
>> delete or backspace, and use Enter for new line. That's it. No text
>> selection, not bold/italics buttons, no undo. All of which is entirely
>> feasible, but too much work for this demo.
>>
>> Some things can't be done with the demo right now, such as changing a
>> template name, or resizing an image. Again, no technical reason, just
>> a man-hour one. You will certainly find many ways to break it, and
>> instances where it fails (correctly discerning whether and image if
>> local or from Commons is one).
>>
>>
>> What I would like is some discussion about
>> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
>> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
>> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
>> throw at the general public
>> * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>>
>> As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
>> end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
>> supports it. Well, I can dream...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 6:17 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 January 2011 16:53, Joe Corneli <holtzermann17@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I love it and for the sake of demonstration the deep impact of the
>> approach, I recommend one minor change:
>> Retitle it WYSIFTW
>
>
> +1

I hope you're both referring to #1 on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/FTW ...

(#3 would work as well, for wheel wars ;-)

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
I'm getting blank pages after adding that (in Safari, Mac).
I tried using importScriptURI'ing it but to no luck. I presume because
the script internally calls more document.writes.

--
Krinkle


Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:

> For the impatient, add
>
> document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
> src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');
>
> to your vector.js,


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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:

> For the impatient, add
>
> document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
> src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');
>
> to your vector.js,

Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on
"Parsing..." modal box.
Console told me "images.query [undefined] is not an object".

API call to http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=query&generator=images&titles=Sandbox&prop=info&imlimit=500&format=json
returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at
the time).

Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went
into "WTF"-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image
to ENWP's local "File:Example.jpg".
Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and
commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the
start.
ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.



Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:

>
>> What I would like is some discussion about
>> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
>> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
>> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
>> throw at the general public
>> * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>>
>> As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
>> end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
>> supports it. Well, I can dream...
>
> You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in
> the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki
> , http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-
> level_editing, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html
> and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing
>
> Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is
> quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a
> good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I
> think it's not in SVN (yet).
>
> Regards,
> Jan Paul



Right now there are three or four projects in active development
(including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
How about working together ?

Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are
the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.

Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:
Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
with wikitext.

--
Krinkle






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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
On 1/1/11, Magnus Manske
<magnusmanske@googlemail.com> wrote: > Works for
me (Mac, Chrome). Not tested anywhere else. Your
OS/browser?
That was on FF3.6, running under X11 on Mac OS.
Not the most mainstream combo :)

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
2011/1/1 Krinkle <krinklemail@gmail.com>:
> Op 1 jan 2011, om 13:50 heeft Magnus Manske het volgende geschreven:
>
>> For the impatient, add
>>
>> document.write('<script type="text/javascript"
>> src="http://toolserver.org/~magnus/wysiwtf/wysiwtf.js"><\/script>');
>>
>> to your vector.js,
>
> Okay, I've switched to Firefox 4 Beta on Mac and it works there.
> One error I got though, when I click the WYSIWTF-tab it got stuck on
> "Parsing..." modal box.
> Console told me "images.query [undefined] is not an object".
>
> API call to http://www.mediawiki.org/w/api.php?action=query&generator=images&titles=Sandbox&prop=info&imlimit=500&format=json
> returned an empty array (the Sandbox page didn't contain any images at
> the time).

Thanks, fixed now.

> Another (that you already mentioned partially) is that when I went
> into "WTF"-mode the image suddenly changed from MW.org's local image
> to ENWP's local "File:Example.jpg".
> Although I understand it doens't differentiate between local and
> commons, I think we should keep wiki-independance in mind from the
> start.
> ie. using wgVariables instead of 'en'.

Also fixed now, using wgContentLanguage and a different API query.

> Op 1 jan 2011, om 15:40 heeft Jan Paul Posma het volgende geschreven:
>
>>
>>> What I would like is some discussion about
>>> * if this approach (working pseudo-WYSIWYG instead of unattainable
>>> perfect WYSIWYG) is the way to go
>>> * if the code I wrote would be a suitable basis for a system we can
>>> throw at the general public
>>> * if anyone is willing to help me with that
>>>
>>> As always, my code is GPL, and I would be more than happy if, in the
>>> end, it would become "official" Foundation code, with staff that
>>> supports it. Well, I can dream...
>>
>> You seem to want to do exactly the same thing as I'm doing, but in
>> the browser only! Maybe you're interested in looking at http://janpaulposma.nl/sle/wiki
>> , http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/User:JanPaul123/Sentence-
>> level_editing, http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2010-October/050031.html
>>  and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sentence-level_editing
>>
>> Anyway, I have also looked at doing parsing in the browser, which is
>> quite interesting. WikiBasha also uses JS parsing, so maybe it's a
>> good idea to look at that too. Trevor also made a JS parser, but I
>> think it's not in SVN (yet).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan Paul
>
>
>
> Right now there are three or four projects in active development
> (including Magnus' WYSIWTF en Sentence-level editing).
> How about working together ?
>
> Compare what the current status of the different projects is, what are
> the ultimate goals, which are closest to it ?
> Then import from others to it to make one awesome thing.
>
> Personaly I also prefer the non-WYSIWYG editing style. In other words:
> Showing what things are but staying in (in)direct contact
> with wikitext.

I'm not sure what's happening to that usability initiative template
folder thingy, which looked way cooler than mine, but never made a
live appearance.

The sentence-level editing looked great last time I checked, but
requires server-side mods IIRC, and seems to be limited to smaller
fixes. Maybe I'm wrong there, though. Not sure if we could join code,
as we do different things on the content preparation level; maybe
decent editor code? I could use some ;-)

I can see my solution and the sentence-level editing happily
co-existing, though!

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: WYSIWTF working demo [ In reply to ]
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mathias Schindler" <mathias.schindler@gmail.com>

> On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
> > Some people -- you can include me in this -- *actively* hate WYSIWYG
> > editing,
>
> my comment was in no way about the pros and cons of WYSIWYG editing
> and the decision at Wikimedia to have its own turing complete language
> for content. My comment was about this demonstrator which should have
> a huge selection bias of non-haters :)
>
> I reject the WYSIWYG concept itself much less then I dislike the
> effects it has on humans who start to "make things look nice".

Oh: you were suggesting that *his demonstrator* not show the plaintext
edit tabs.

Well, remember that those looking at it to evaluate it will *also* note
that they're missing; this will have an effect on people's perceptions
one way or the other, even though it's not a production implementation.

My apologies for misunderstanding you, and for sounding like Get Offa My
Lawn Guy, something I have to guard against increasingly as I dive into
my forties. :-)

Cheers,
-- jra

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