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Vector skin not working on BlackBerry?
There's a few comments on the Wikimedia blog saying they can't access
en:wp any more using their BlackBerry. Though we tried it here on an
8900 and it works. Any other reports?


- d.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 3:16 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's a few comments on the Wikimedia blog saying they can't access
> en:wp any more using their BlackBerry. Though we tried it here on an
> 8900 and it works. Any other reports?

Punching in http://en.wikipedia.org/ as I normally would...

It starts to render, but with an enormous grey area at the top like a
gigantic banner ad. Then the browser crashes, I assume I've never
seen it do that before... it throws up a "there was a problem
rendering this page", blanks the screen, and goes unresponsive.

Blackberry 8310, software v4.5.0.110 (Platform 2.7.0.90)

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
"David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:AANLkTin9qhCgvataEgsDrWjUc-jEGJ-iwdG6f9oYtwdt@mail.gmail.com...
> There's a few comments on the Wikimedia blog saying they can't access
> en:wp any more using their BlackBerry. Though we tried it here on an
> 8900 and it works. Any other reports?

Works fine using Opera Mini.

Trying to load any page on the native Blackberry Browser, with JavaScript
disabled, results in a browser crash with message "Uncaught exception:
java.lang.ClassCastException" (after the page has fully loaded). Trying
with JavaScript enabled (while not logged in) results in "HTTP Error 413:
Request Entity Too Large", even on a page known to be very small.

This is for a Blackberry 8800 v.4.5.0.110.




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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 05/13/2010 10:55 PM, Russell Blau wrote:
> "David Gerard"<dgerard@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:AANLkTin9qhCgvataEgsDrWjUc-jEGJ-iwdG6f9oYtwdt@mail.gmail.com...
>> There's a few comments on the Wikimedia blog saying they can't access
>> en:wp any more using their BlackBerry. Though we tried it here on an
>> 8900 and it works. Any other reports?
>
> Works fine using Opera Mini.
>
> Trying to load any page on the native Blackberry Browser, with JavaScript
> disabled, results in a browser crash with message "Uncaught exception:
> java.lang.ClassCastException" (after the page has fully loaded). Trying
> with JavaScript enabled (while not logged in) results in "HTTP Error 413:
> Request Entity Too Large", even on a page known to be very small.

Error 413 generally means, in plain English, "URL too long". I'd
suspect some script is trying to do an API query using a very long URL,
and the fact that this only happens when JS is enabled lends support to
this.

Assuming that the Blackberry browser doesn't have particularly good JS
debugging support, it might be worth looking at the same page in e.g. FF
+ Firebug, with JS and net debugging enabled, and looking for any
requests with suspiciously long URLs.

I've no idea what might be causing the other problems, though.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
2010/5/13 Ilmari Karonen <nospam@vyznev.net>:
> Error 413 generally means, in plain English, "URL too long".  I'd
> suspect some script is trying to do an API query using a very long URL,
> and the fact that this only happens when JS is enabled lends support to
> this.
>
> Assuming that the Blackberry browser doesn't have particularly good JS
> debugging support, it might be worth looking at the same page in e.g. FF
> + Firebug, with JS and net debugging enabled, and looking for any
> requests with suspiciously long URLs.
>
> I've no idea what might be causing the other problems, though.
>
413s are thrown by the *server*, not the client. An overlong URL would
cause 413s independent of whether it's Firefox or a Blackberry
requesting them.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2010/5/13 Ilmari Karonen <nospam@vyznev.net>:
>> Error 413 generally means, in plain English, "URL too long".  I'd
>> suspect some script is trying to do an API query using a very long URL,
>> and the fact that this only happens when JS is enabled lends support to
>> this.
>>
>> Assuming that the Blackberry browser doesn't have particularly good JS
>> debugging support, it might be worth looking at the same page in e.g. FF
>> + Firebug, with JS and net debugging enabled, and looking for any
>> requests with suspiciously long URLs.
>>
>> I've no idea what might be causing the other problems, though.
>>
> 413s are thrown by the *server*, not the client. An overlong URL would
> cause 413s independent of whether it's Firefox or a Blackberry
> requesting them.

You'd think so, but it really is the "client".

If you Google "Blackberry 413" there is a long history of this error
happening on the Blackberry web client. It appears that a 413 error
is the way that the Blackberry rendering engine responds to hitting
resource limits (e.g. memory or storage space). The newer models tend
to avoid it by devoting more resources to browsing.

I would guess that the Javascript associated with Vector is using more
memory than the Monobook version did and this is causing an error for
people that used to have no trouble browsing Wikipedia before.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
vyznev wrote:
> I'd suspect some script is trying to do an API query using a very long URL,
> and the fact that this only happens when JS is enabled lends support to
> this.

I don't see any long url requested on enwiki.


> I would guess that the Javascript associated with Vector is using more
> memory than the Monobook version did and this is causing an error for
> people that used to have no trouble browsing Wikipedia before.

jQuery is by itself much more complex than the scripts used before,
plugins.combined.min.js and Vector.combined.min.js aren't small either.

Does Blackberry also fail on other webs using jQuery?


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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 14 May 2010 16:34, Platonides <Platonides@gmail.com> wrote:
> vyznev wrote:
>> I'd suspect some script is trying to do an API query using a very long URL,
>> and the fact that this only happens when JS is enabled lends support to
>> this.
>
> I don't see any long url requested on enwiki.
>
>
>> I would guess that the Javascript associated with Vector is using more
>> memory than the Monobook version did and this is causing an error for
>> people that used to have no trouble browsing Wikipedia before.
>
> jQuery is by itself much more complex than the scripts used before,
> plugins.combined.min.js and Vector.combined.min.js aren't small either.
>
> Does Blackberry also fail on other webs using jQuery?
>
>

Maybe a Blackberry emulator can be usefull (one that is accurate). Any
idea of where one can be downloaded?


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.
.
.
postdata:
And a ASCII art editor, to draws quick mockups in wikipedia. That would be fun.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Tei <oscar.vives@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe a Blackberry emulator can be usefull (one that is accurate). Any
> idea of where one can be downloaded?
>

First google result:

http://na.blackberry.com/eng/developers/resources/simulators.jsp

-Chad

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
BTW, Vector is also breaking the PS3 browser, according to a couple of
comments on the blog post.

We seem not to be quite achieving that "graceful degradation" thing
immaculately ...


- d.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
When visiting a vector site with a Nokia N-series (tested on N90,95and
96) viewing it on Opera Mini there are problems also.

Its impossible to click the buttons "userpage, talkpage, watchlist .."
they are all in the same spot, trying to press will give the
prefences.

The Buttons with Edit Talk History are all in the same place and
pressing one isn't working at all.

Best,


2010/5/14, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
> BTW, Vector is also breaking the PS3 browser, according to a couple of
> comments on the blog post.
>
> We seem not to be quite achieving that "graceful degradation" thing
> immaculately ...
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
Maybe could be usefull to have a special url that automatically
disable vector, and make this setting continue with the session (is
that even possible?).

Like
http://en.wikipedia.com/classicview

So people designing smartphones, that want his smartphone to use the
old interface, can make the link point there, so a old style theme is
in use even before the user has the oportunity to login.


On 14 May 2010 17:55, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
> When visiting a vector site with a Nokia N-series (tested on N90,95and
> 96) viewing it on Opera Mini there are problems also.
>
> Its impossible to click the buttons "userpage, talkpage, watchlist .."
> they are all in the same spot, trying to press will give the
> prefences.
>
> The Buttons with Edit Talk History are all in the same place and
> pressing one isn't working at all.
>
> Best,
>
>
> 2010/5/14, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>:
>> BTW, Vector is also breaking the PS3 browser, according to a couple of
>> comments on the blog post.
>>
>> We seem not to be quite achieving that "graceful degradation" thing
>> immaculately ...
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
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>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>>
>
>
> --
> Huib "Abigor" Laurens
>
> Tech team
> www.wikiweet.nl - www.llamadawiki.nl - www.forgotten-beauty.com
>
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>



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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Tei <oscar.vives@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe could be usefull to have a special url that automatically
> disable vector, and make this setting continue with the session (is
> that even possible?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?useskin=monobook

You have to readd ?useskin=monobook or &useskin=monobook on every page
view, though, since it's not added to links.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 24 May 2010 16:25, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Tei <oscar.vives@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Maybe could be usefull to have a special url that automatically
>> disable vector, and make this setting continue with the session (is
>> that even possible?).

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?useskin=monobook
> You have to readd ?useskin=monobook or &useskin=monobook on every page
> view, though, since it's not added to links.


A lotta commenters on the blog have complained at having to create a
login to get back monobook. People don't like being forced (as they
see it) to create yet another website login.

Is there any reason not to make "useskin=" persistent? i.e., to render
all internal links on a page with a useskin= if one was used in the
URL? Then at least that'd be a workaround for the Blackberry, PS3 etc.
users until we get some graceful degradation happening, and calm the
ruffled feathers a bit.


- d.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 11:34 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any reason not to make "useskin=" persistent? i.e., to render
> all internal links on a page with a useskin= if one was used in the
> URL?

Yes. We'd have to either fragment the parser cache, or implement some
type of postprocessing step in the parser (which would surely be
unreliable unless the parser was significantly reworked). The
standard way to do this instead would be with a cookie, which would
work without fragmenting the parser cache. But any solution at all
will have to fragment the Squid cache, since the HTML output is
entirely different, and that's already not a good thing if a lot of
people switch back to Monobook. (If Monobook and Vector differed only
in CSS, then better options would be available, but they don't.)

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 24 May 2010 17:25, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Tei <oscar.vives@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe could be usefull to have a special url that automatically
>> disable vector, and make this setting continue with the session (is
>> that even possible?).
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?useskin=monobook
>
> You have to readd ?useskin=monobook or &useskin=monobook on every page
> view, though, since it's not added to links.
>

Neato.

I have made this awesome url:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=Special:Preferences&returntoquery=useskin%3Dmonobook

It create the login page in monobook, and once you login, puts you in
settings (again in monobook), so from there you can disable monobook
(note: I have not tested that myself, I love vector ;-) )




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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
David Gerard wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 16:25, Aryeh Gregor <Simetrical+wikilist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Tei <oscar.vives@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> Maybe could be usefull to have a special url that automatically
>>> disable vector, and make this setting continue with the session (is
>>> that even possible?).
>>>
>
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/?useskin=monobook
>> You have to readd ?useskin=monobook or &useskin=monobook on every page
>> view, though, since it's not added to links.
>>
>
>
> A lotta commenters on the blog have complained at having to create a
> login to get back monobook. People don't like being forced (as they
> see it) to create yet another website login.
>
> Is there any reason not to make "useskin=" persistent? i.e., to render
> all internal links on a page with a useskin= if one was used in the
> URL? Then at least that'd be a workaround for the Blackberry, PS3 etc.
> users until we get some graceful degradation happening, and calm the
> ruffled feathers a bit.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
Another possible solution is to serve the mobile site when the page is
requested from blackberry. I am working with Tomasz and Hamton, if we
can make the switch.

- Naoko



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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 24 May 2010 19:58, Naoko Komura <nkomura@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Another possible solution is to serve the mobile site when the page is
> requested from blackberry.  I am working with Tomasz and Hamton, if we
> can make the switch.


That's the obvious answer, yes :-)

Do we have a known graceful-degradation path when a browser is just
too crappy to deal with l33t skins like Vector? I'm thinking of the
PS3 users here, noisy as they are considering their near-negligible
user percentage. ('Cos when you're on a gaming platform, reading an
encyclopedia is of course the first use that springs to mind.)
Apparently their browser is a NetFront variant.


- d.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
On 24 May 2010 20:04, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> Do we have a known graceful-degradation path when a browser is just
> too crappy to deal with l33t skins like Vector? I'm thinking of the
> PS3 users here, noisy as they are considering their near-negligible
> user percentage. ('Cos when you're on a gaming platform, reading an
> encyclopedia is of course the first use that springs to mind.)
> Apparently their browser is a NetFront variant.


Sending PS3 to mobile as well may be appropriate:

http://www.design215.com/read.php?title=playstation%203%20browser%20specs

Anyone got a PS3 to test on?


- d.

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Re: Vector skin not working on BlackBerry? [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On 24 May 2010 21:09, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 24 May 2010 20:04, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do we have a known graceful-degradation path when a browser is just
>> too crappy to deal with l33t skins like Vector? I'm thinking of the
>> PS3 users here, noisy as they are considering their near-negligible
>> user percentage. ('Cos when you're on a gaming platform, reading an
>> encyclopedia is of course the first use that springs to mind.)
>> Apparently their browser is a NetFront variant.
>
>
> Sending PS3 to mobile as well may be appropriate:
>
> http://www.design215.com/read.php?title=playstation%203%20browser%20specs
>
> Anyone got a PS3 to test on?
>

Yesterday I finally found some time to fire up the PS3 again and look
at the web-browsing. The Mediawiki rendering is indeed not completely
correct. There are large vertical bands of gray layered across the
text: the tabs available at the top of a page are extended downwards
and obscure the text.

I have not yet found a way to look at it in another way than actually
browsing, so it may be difficult to investigate further. If anyone has
ideas/suggestions on how to show/report the rendering, then just let
me know (if you want I can take some shots with the digital camera and
upload them somewhere).

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Jean-Marc
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