Mailing List Archive

serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live
Hi!

I've read on the techblog that the new UI go live in April. I have
some questions:

1) What version? Acai, babaco, citron?
2) How/where could a wiki customize the special character insert menu,
and the inserted strings? And the embed file (picture) button inserts
this: "[[Example.jpg]]", without any "File:" or "Image:"!
3) The search and replace button is available in firefox, but does not
appear at all in opera. Why?
4) Currently the new navigable TOC does not work on FF/Opera at all
(I've tried those).

Not too early for live deployment?

Regards,
Akos Szabo (Glanthor Reviol)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/26 Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com>:
> Hi!
>
> I've read on the techblog that the new UI go live in April. I have
> some questions:
>
> 1) What version? Acai, babaco, citron?
Babaco, mostly. The features being made default are the Vector skin
and the enhanced toolbar (including the new dialogs).

> 2) How/where could a wiki customize the special character insert menu,
> and the inserted strings?
The entire toolbar can be customized using site JS. There are examples
at http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolbar_customization ; these
currently don't mention how to add/modify special characters entries,
I'll add examples for that as well.

> And the embed file (picture) button inserts
> this: "[[Example.jpg]]", without any "File:" or "Image:"!
That's a bug, thanks for reporting it.

> 3) The search and replace button is available in firefox, but does not
> appear at all in opera. Why?
Because Opera is broken is subtle ways that make it very difficult to
get S&R to work right. We could either enable a broken version of S&R
in Opera and be yelled at because it corrupts wikitext (very bad) or
disable the feature in Opera (less bad). In the future, S&R should
work in Opera as well.

> 4) Currently the new navigable TOC does not work on FF/Opera at all
> (I've tried those).
>
That's deliberate, the TOC requires the iframe, which was disabled
because of copy-paste issues. We're also not enabling NTOC as a
default feature, so this is irrelevant.

> Not too early for live deployment?
>
Your list consists of a trivial bug (missing File: prefix), a feature
(protecting Opera users from text corruption) and the disabling of an
unrelated feature that's not slated to go live in April, so I wouldn't
say it's too early.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:30, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw@gmail.com> wrote:

> > and the inserted strings?
> > 2) How/where could a wiki customize the special character insert menu,
> The entire toolbar can be customized using site JS. There are examples
> at http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolbar_customization ; these
> currently don't mention how to add/modify special characters entries,
> I'll add examples for that as well.
>

Whatever they mention, i couldn't understand a word of it, and i do know
some HTML and JS.

There are several buttons which are essential to me and which disappeared
from the new default toolbar, such as nowiki, strikeout and some others. If
i had a convenient way to add them, i wouldn't complain, but that [[Toolbar
customization]] page is completely unreadable to anyone but the dedicated
developers.

> And the embed file (picture) button inserts
> > this: "[[Example.jpg]]", without any "File:" or "Image:"!
> That's a bug, thanks for reporting it.
>

I reported this bug some time ago via "beta feedback". It seems completely
trivial, but it's still not fixed. I rarely insert images, so i can live
with it, but many other editors do and i have no idea how they live with it.


> > Not too early for live deployment?
> >
> Your list consists of a trivial bug (missing File: prefix), a feature
> (protecting Opera users from text corruption) and the disabling of an
> unrelated feature that's not slated to go live in April, so I wouldn't
> say it's too early.
>

I'm sorry, but it is too early to force this on editors. On the technical
Village Pump in the Hebrew Wikipedia, for example, the attitude towards the
beta ranges from indifferent to negative, and not because of RTL problems,
but simply because for people who only read Wikipedia this is inessential
and for editors it is rather harmful.

True, some people may have enabled the beta and stuck to it, but what about
all those that didn't enable it at all or enabled it and returned to
Monobook? Do you have any numbers about people who use the beta and actually
edit Wikipedia and not just read it?

You should ask for more feedback from the community via sitenotice or
watchlist notice before enabling it for everyone.

--
אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
Amir Elisha Aharoni

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"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On 03/26/2010 01:59 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:30, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > and the inserted strings?
>>> 2) How/where could a wiki customize the special character insert menu,
>> The entire toolbar can be customized using site JS. There are examples
>> at http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Toolbar_customization ; these
>> currently don't mention how to add/modify special characters entries,
>> I'll add examples for that as well.
>>

I would greatly appreciate some documentation on customising the symbols
stuff, copying the symbols part of the given example didn't seem to do
anything, but maybe that's because it loaded too late - how would I
tell? Also, is it possible to re-order the sets of languages, or to
divide the contents of the sets into groups? And will current
CharInsert edittools still be available?

Conrad

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On 26.03.2010, 16:30 Roan wrote:

> Because Opera is broken is subtle ways that make it very difficult to
> get S&R to work right. We could either enable a broken version of S&R
> in Opera and be yelled at because it corrupts wikitext (very bad) or
> disable the feature in Opera (less bad). In the future, S&R should
> work in Opera as well.

Speaking of Opera, it seems seems to have many bugs causing troubles
for UI, such as <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21537>.
Can we produce reduced test cases and report them to Opera? After
all, their CTO Hakon Wium Lie posted to this list, so apparently they
are interested in making their browser run smoothly on world's 6th
website.

--
Best regards,
Max Semenik ([[User:MaxSem]])


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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> Whatever they mention, i couldn't understand a word of it, and i do know
> some HTML and JS.
>
> There are several buttons which are essential to me and which disappeared
> from the new default toolbar, such as nowiki, strikeout and some others. If
> i had a convenient way to add them, i wouldn't complain, but that [[Toolbar
> customization]] page is completely unreadable to anyone but the dedicated
> developers.
>
This is a page that was quickly whipped up some time ago, and I agree
that it's probably not very readable. I will add a section with some
easy instant-copy-and-paste snippets that add stuff like nowiki,
strikeout and redirect. If you could elaborate on what "and others"
consists of, I'll add those too.

>> And the embed file (picture) button inserts
>> > this: "[[Example.jpg]]", without any "File:" or "Image:"!
>> That's a bug, thanks for reporting it.
>>
>
> I reported this bug some time ago via "beta feedback". It seems completely
> trivial, but it's still not fixed. I rarely insert images, so i can live
> with it, but many other editors do and i have no idea how they live with it.
>
I've filed this as https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22964

> I'm sorry, but it is too early to force this on editors. On the technical
> Village Pump in the Hebrew Wikipedia, for example, the attitude towards the
> beta ranges from indifferent to negative, and not because of RTL problems,
> but simply because for people who only read Wikipedia this is inessential
> and for editors it is rather harmful.
>
Exactly how is this harmful? The only two problems you listed are a
few missing toolbar buttons, which are easily added, and one buggy
toolbar button which, by your own admission, you "can live with" (but
which we'll of course fix ASAP).

> True, some people may have enabled the beta and stuck to it, but what about
> all those that didn't enable it at all or enabled it and returned to
> Monobook?
We record both opt-ins and opt-outs. The retention rate (% of users
who opted into the Beta and kept it) has been hovering around 80%
cluster-wide, with certain specific wikis (such as Japanese and
Polish, off the top of my head) showing lower numbers due to specific
issues (font size and broken Gadgets, respectively); still "lower" in
this case means something like 65-70%.

> Do you have any numbers about people who use the beta and actually
> edit Wikipedia and not just read it?
>
We don't currently have these numbers, but I suppose we could whip up
some statistics about the spread of edit count (more useful metric
than "did this user ever edit") among beta users and former beta users
that opted back out.

For what it's worth, we'll also be adding a "Take me back" link,
similar to the "Try Beta" link, which changes the user's preferences
to disable all usability features and change their skin back to
Monobook.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 19:21, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> > Whatever they mention, i couldn't understand a word of it, and i do know
> > some HTML and JS.
> >
> > There are several buttons which are essential to me and which disappeared
> > from the new default toolbar, such as nowiki, strikeout and some others.
> If
> > i had a convenient way to add them, i wouldn't complain, but that
> [[Toolbar
> > customization]] page is completely unreadable to anyone but the dedicated
> > developers.
> >
> This is a page that was quickly whipped up some time ago, and I agree
> that it's probably not very readable. I will add a section with some
> easy instant-copy-and-paste snippets that add stuff like nowiki,
> strikeout and redirect. If you could elaborate on what "and others"
> consists of, I'll add those too.
>

Thanks.

Note, however, that if you add JS snippets, it may make it usable to me, but
probably not quite usable to many people who don't want to learn to edit
their vector.js. I've been editing Wikipedia for 5 years and i only created
a personal JS file a few days ago.

Making a GUI for adding buttons, at least through the "Gadgets" tab in the
preferences, is essential.


> > I'm sorry, but it is too early to force this on editors. On the technical
> > Village Pump in the Hebrew Wikipedia, for example, the attitude towards
> the
> > beta ranges from indifferent to negative, and not because of RTL
> problems,
> > but simply because for people who only read Wikipedia this is inessential
> > and for editors it is rather harmful.
> >
> Exactly how is this harmful? The only two problems you listed are a
> few missing toolbar buttons, which are easily added, and one buggy
> toolbar button which, by your own admission, you "can live with" (but
> which we'll of course fix ASAP).
>

I often write documentation for templates and having to type
<nowiki></nowiki> all the time in examples of template usage is rather
harmful, especially in the RTL environment of he.wp.

Will it be enabled in Wikisource, too? It doesn't work so well with the
Proofread Page extension, which i use all the time.

In general, it would be less scary to hear the announcement that the Beta
will so soon replace the current interface after the fixes to the important
bugs in the Beta are actually deployed (line breaks in pasted text, image
insertion in pasted text, etc.).

And don't get me wrong: I actually support interface updates, even if they
are not very essential, and i do use the Beta most of the time in the last
few weeks. I just think that it should be deployed after community
discussion, and just forced on the community. Even if it's possible to go
back to Monobook, it's still rather unpleasant; in fact, if a lot of people
won't like it, it will especially unpleasant for the developers. For
example, it will be much better to share problems with the Beta on a
dedicated page in en.wp or on Meta, than to report them through the rather
inconvenient "beta feedback" page. (And maybe such a page exists and i am
making a fool of myself :)

--
אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
The day this turn live, the Internet will become a bit crazy.
Wikipedia is a important part of 2010 internet.

I am sure lots of people will want to put this skin on his suddenly
old-looking wikipedias in internet and lans. You guys are doing a nice
work.

note: I must report that the window "Add media wizard: Edit resource"
don't "trim" the content of the "Caption" textarea prior to use, so
If you put lots of \n there, end on the page.

note: Is worth putting a link "If you have problems with the new
theme, please report then here?".

note: is maybe a matter of personal preference, but I think the main
edit textarea could have a bit of padding, so the text can't touch the
border of the textarea.

note: why textareas have vertical scrollbars?, maybe theres a way to
dinamically change the height counting the number of \n inside the
textarea. Of that is evil?


--
--
ℱin del ℳensaje.

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> Thanks.
>
> Note, however, that if you add JS snippets, it may make it usable to me, but
> probably not quite usable to many people who don't want to learn to edit
> their vector.js. I've been editing Wikipedia for 5 years and i only created
> a personal JS file a few days ago.
>
It's not hard, given instructions, right? The instructions tell you
the name of the page and exactly what to put into it, all you need to
do is Ctrl+C, Edit, Ctrl+V, Save. I agree it's not the most intuitive
thing in the world and gadgets are nicer (see below), but it's not
rocket science either (as long as you don't have to write the JS
yourself).

> Making a GUI for adding buttons, at least through the "Gadgets" tab in the
> preferences, is essential.
>
It wouldn't be hard to implement the more popular buttons as Gadgets,
we could do that I guess.

> I often write documentation for templates and having to type
> <nowiki></nowiki> all the time in examples of template usage is rather
> harmful, especially in the RTL environment of he.wp.
>
I just heard we'll be adding a nowiki button in the stock toolbar, yay :)

> Will it be enabled in Wikisource, too? It doesn't work so well with the
> Proofread Page extension, which i use all the time.
>
It will, yes. If you could file any bugs in the interaction between
Vector and ProofreadPage in Bugzilla, that'd be great.

> In general, it would be less scary to hear the announcement that the Beta
> will so soon replace the current interface after the fixes to the important
> bugs in the Beta are actually deployed (line breaks in pasted text, image
> insertion in pasted text, etc.).
>
The copypaste issues were the consequence of accidentally enabling the
iframe editor for 36 hours. I disabled it again as soon as I figured
out what was going wrong. I repeat: the iframe-based editor and the
copypaste issues currently associated with it WILL NOT be part of the
default rollout. Also, I trust bugfixes made to the beta in the next
few weeks will be deployed quickly rather than waiting for the
switchover.

> For
> example, it will be much better to share problems with the Beta on a
> dedicated page in en.wp or on Meta, than to report them through the rather
> inconvenient "beta feedback" page. (And maybe such a page exists and i am
> making a fool of myself :)
>
You mean http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prototype ? Also,
software bugs can and should be reported at bugzilla.wikimedia.org .

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 20:14, Roan Kattouw <roan.kattouw@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
>
> > Making a GUI for adding buttons, at least through the "Gadgets" tab in
> the
> > preferences, is essential.
> >
> It wouldn't be hard to implement the more popular buttons as Gadgets,
> we could do that I guess.
>

It's essential. It is not too hard for me to edit vector.js, but most
editors won't bother.


> > will so soon replace the current interface after the fixes to the
> important
> > bugs in the Beta are actually deployed (line breaks in pasted text, image
> > insertion in pasted text, etc.).
> >
> > In general, it would be less scary to hear the announcement that the Beta
> The copypaste issues were the consequence of accidentally enabling the
> iframe editor for 36 hours. I disabled it again as soon as I figured
> out what was going wrong. I repeat: the iframe-based editor and the
> copypaste issues currently associated with it WILL NOT be part of the
> default rollout. Also, I trust bugfixes made to the beta in the next
> few weeks will be deployed quickly rather than waiting for the
> switchover.
>

I am probably missing something. Is it enabled in the Beta now? Because i'm
seeing the linebreaks bug now.


> > For
> > example, it will be much better to share problems with the Beta on a
> > dedicated page in en.wp or on Meta, than to report them through the
> rather
> > inconvenient "beta feedback" page. (And maybe such a page exists and i am
> > making a fool of myself :)
> >
> You mean http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prototype ?
>

Thanks. You hid it well :)

--
אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Max Semenik <maxsem.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Opera, it seems seems to have many bugs causing troubles
> for UI, such as <https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21537>.
> Can we produce reduced test cases and report them to Opera? After
> all, their CTO Hakon Wium Lie posted to this list, so apparently they
> are interested in making their browser run smoothly on world's 6th
> website.

You can report Opera bugs here:

https://bugs.opera.com/wizard/

It goes to some internal closed tracker and you never receive a response.

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> I am probably missing something. Is it enabled in the Beta now? Because i'm
> seeing the linebreaks bug now.
>
Works fine for me, but we've had inconsistencies between Europe and
the rest of the world before. I did what I usually do to fix that,
hopefully it worked. Also, there seems to be a rogue sever not getting
updates, if it's still in the server pool there's like a 1 in 200
chance you're getting your (outdated) JS from that box. Shift+Refresh
should fix either issue.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
At Wikisource, we would be wanting to install tools in batches, and often dependent on the
namespace, so we would be looking to gadgetise, or some other readily available means.
Also as some works/projects upon which people undertake have repetitive editing, so we
would be looking to enable people to easily configure for their works of interest, even to
the point of being able to look to produce certain tools per work/project.

We see that being able to produce tools that are ideal for a work or a project enables us
to make certain transcriptions more appetising to the casual editor.

Regards Andrew


On 26 Mar 2010 at 18:14, Roan Kattouw wrote:

> 2010/3/26 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Note, however, that if you add JS snippets, it may make it usable to me, but
> > probably not quite usable to many people who don't want to learn to edit
> > their vector.js. I've been editing Wikipedia for 5 years and i only created
> > a personal JS file a few days ago.
> >
> It's not hard, given instructions, right? The instructions tell you
> the name of the page and exactly what to put into it, all you need to
> do is Ctrl+C, Edit, Ctrl+V, Save. I agree it's not the most intuitive
> thing in the world and gadgets are nicer (see below), but it's not
> rocket science either (as long as you don't have to write the JS
> yourself).
>
> > Making a GUI for adding buttons, at least through the "Gadgets" tab in the
> > preferences, is essential.
> >
> It wouldn't be hard to implement the more popular buttons as Gadgets,
> we could do that I guess.
>
> > I often write documentation for templates and having to type
> > <nowiki></nowiki> all the time in examples of template usage is rather
> > harmful, especially in the RTL environment of he.wp.
> >
> I just heard we'll be adding a nowiki button in the stock toolbar, yay :)
>
> > Will it be enabled in Wikisource, too? It doesn't work so well with the
> > Proofread Page extension, which i use all the time.
> >
> It will, yes. If you could file any bugs in the interaction between
> Vector and ProofreadPage in Bugzilla, that'd be great.
>
> > In general, it would be less scary to hear the announcement that the Beta
> > will so soon replace the current interface after the fixes to the important
> > bugs in the Beta are actually deployed (line breaks in pasted text, image
> > insertion in pasted text, etc.).
> >
> The copypaste issues were the consequence of accidentally enabling the
> iframe editor for 36 hours. I disabled it again as soon as I figured
> out what was going wrong. I repeat: the iframe-based editor and the
> copypaste issues currently associated with it WILL NOT be part of the
> default rollout. Also, I trust bugfixes made to the beta in the next
> few weeks will be deployed quickly rather than waiting for the
> switchover.
>
> > For
> > example, it will be much better to share problems with the Beta on a
> > dedicated page in en.wp or on Meta, than to report them through the rather
> > inconvenient "beta feedback" page. (And maybe such a page exists and i am
> > making a fool of myself :)
> >
> You mean http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prototype ? Also,
> software bugs can and should be reported at bugzilla.wikimedia.org .
>
> Roan Kattouw (Catrope)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l



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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Hi!

Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?

Thanks,
Akos

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
The dialogs in the new toolbar seem to be disabled in IE8, is this
something that will be changed before deployment?

--
Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/27 Alex <mrzmanwiki@gmail.com>:
> The dialogs in the new toolbar seem to be disabled in IE8, is this
> something that will be changed before deployment?
>
Yes. We discovered they had new IE bugs in a fairly late stage, so
rather than delaying the deployment we decided to deploy them without
IE support. We're working out the IE bugs and will deploy the fixes as
soon as we can.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in occasional
blog posts.

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
>
> Thanks,
> Akos
>
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Amir Elisha Aharoni

http://aharoni.wordpress.com

"We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
2010/3/28 Amir E. Aharoni <amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il>:
> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in occasional
> blog posts.
>
The raw data is at http://toolserver.org/~catrope/optin-20100217/ and
similar URLs for every other day since Feb 1, 2010. The script
generating this data broke recently, so the data for the second half
of March is probably wrong.

Roan Kattouw (Catrope)

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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
I would look at the statistics published here:

http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey

Cheers,

Ariel

Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
έγραψε:
> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in occasional
> blog posts.
>
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Akos
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
<אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>
> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>
> "We're living in pieces,
> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
There is also a spreadsheet at
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aikdcg5HdSKbdDVMM2l2SGM2dUtBU25MLUtTMFEwMFE&hl=hu

I wonder if the user comments and survey results for the Hungarian Wikipedia
are available anywhere? Hungarian is not included in the nice tables I found
on usability wiki, yet the retention rate is just below 60%.

Best regards,
Bence Damokos

On 28 March 2010 00:23, Ariel T. Glenn <ariel@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> I would look at the statistics published here:
>
> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ariel
>
> Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
> έγραψε:
> > I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
> > published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in occasional
> > blog posts.
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Akos
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> <אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > Amir Elisha Aharoni
> >
> > http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> >
> > "We're living in pieces,
> > I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Bence Damokos wrote:
> There is also a spreadsheet at
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aikdcg5HdSKbdDVMM2l2SGM2dUtBU25MLUtTMFEwMFE&hl=hu
>
> I wonder if the user comments and survey results for the Hungarian Wikipedia
> are available anywhere? Hungarian is not included in the nice tables I found
> on usability wiki, yet the retention rate is just below 60%.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence Damokos
>
Hi, Bence.

We can make the user comments from the Hungarain Wikipedia available
along with other languages here, if there is an interest in reviewing
the comments in Hungarian.

http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments

We used the Google Translation to translate the comments for the ten
languages prioritized by the size of traffic and the frequency of the
beta usage.

Best,

- Naoko


> On 28 March 2010 00:23, Ariel T. Glenn <ariel@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>
>> I would look at the statistics published here:
>>
>> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ariel
>>
>> Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
>> έγραψε:
>>
>>> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
>>> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in occasional
>>> blog posts.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Akos
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> <אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>>
>>> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>>>
>>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> "We're living in pieces,
>>> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l


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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Hi Naoko,
Thank you, I think the interest is there. I have been looking at some of the
raw data from the end of October but a more human readable format would
really help to get the picture instead of some individual comments (e.g.
missing toolbar buttons, not working gadgets/WikiEd, can't find the watch
button).

(Note that a portion of the comments are indeed in English and it would be
really nice if you made the original Hungarian comments available as well
alongside any machine translation.)

Best regards,
Bence

On 28 March 2010 19:14, Naoko Komura <nkomura@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Bence Damokos wrote:
> > There is also a spreadsheet at
> >
> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aikdcg5HdSKbdDVMM2l2SGM2dUtBU25MLUtTMFEwMFE&hl=hu
> >
> > I wonder if the user comments and survey results for the Hungarian
> Wikipedia
> > are available anywhere? Hungarian is not included in the nice tables I
> found
> > on usability wiki, yet the retention rate is just below 60%.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence Damokos
> >
> Hi, Bence.
>
> We can make the user comments from the Hungarain Wikipedia available
> along with other languages here, if there is an interest in reviewing
> the comments in Hungarian.
>
> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments
>
> We used the Google Translation to translate the comments for the ten
> languages prioritized by the size of traffic and the frequency of the
> beta usage.
>
> Best,
>
> - Naoko
>
>
> > On 28 March 2010 00:23, Ariel T. Glenn <ariel@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I would look at the statistics published here:
> >>
> >> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Ariel
> >>
> >> Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
> >> έγραψε:
> >>
> >>> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
> >>> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in
> occasional
> >>> blog posts.
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Hi!
> >>>>
> >>>> Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Akos
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >> <אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> >>
> >>> Amir Elisha Aharoni
> >>>
> >>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
> >>>
> >>> "We're living in pieces,
> >>> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikitech-l mailing list
> >> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
>
> --
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Bence Damokos wrote:
> Hi Naoko,
> Thank you, I think the interest is there. I have been looking at some of the
> raw data from the end of October but a more human readable format would
> really help to get the picture instead of some individual comments (e.g.
> missing toolbar buttons, not working gadgets/WikiEd, can't find the watch
> button).
>
> (Note that a portion of the comments are indeed in English and it would be
> really nice if you made the original Hungarian comments available as well
> alongside any machine translation.)
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
>
OK, let us clean up the raw data file and upload the survey comments for
hu.wp in Hungarian with the machine translation to English. You can
tell us how good or bad the machine translation is. :-)

- Naoko


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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Bence Damokos wrote:
> Hi Naoko,
> Thank you, I think the interest is there. I have been looking at some of the
> raw data from the end of October but a more human readable format would
> really help to get the picture instead of some individual comments (e.g.
> missing toolbar buttons, not working gadgets/WikiEd, can't find the watch
> button).
>
> (Note that a portion of the comments are indeed in English and it would be
> really nice if you made the original Hungarian comments available as well
> alongside any machine translation.)
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
Hi, Bence.

The survey feedback from the Hungarian Wikipedia is now available with
English translation.

http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments
If the wiki page is too slow to load, you can go to the survey page
directly.
http://biturl.cc/bWQ

The data only covers till December for now.

We will review the translated comments, but if you find the machine
translation is horribly broken, please give us a holler.

Best,

- Naoko
> On 28 March 2010 19:14, Naoko Komura <nkomura@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Bence Damokos wrote:
>>
>>> There is also a spreadsheet at
>>>
>>>
>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aikdcg5HdSKbdDVMM2l2SGM2dUtBU25MLUtTMFEwMFE&hl=hu
>>
>>> I wonder if the user comments and survey results for the Hungarian
>>>
>> Wikipedia
>>
>>> are available anywhere? Hungarian is not included in the nice tables I
>>>
>> found
>>
>>> on usability wiki, yet the retention rate is just below 60%.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Bence Damokos
>>>
>>>
>> Hi, Bence.
>>
>> We can make the user comments from the Hungarain Wikipedia available
>> along with other languages here, if there is an interest in reviewing
>> the comments in Hungarian.
>>
>> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments
>>
>> We used the Google Translation to translate the comments for the ten
>> languages prioritized by the size of traffic and the frequency of the
>> beta usage.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> - Naoko
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 28 March 2010 00:23, Ariel T. Glenn <ariel@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I would look at the statistics published here:
>>>>
>>>> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Ariel
>>>>
>>>> Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
>>>> έγραψε:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
>>>>> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in
>>>>>
>> occasional
>>
>>>>> blog posts.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Akos
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> <אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>>>>>
>>>>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "We're living in pieces,
>>>>> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>> --
>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: serious questions about UsabilityInitiative going live [ In reply to ]
Naoko Komura wrote:
> Bence Damokos wrote:
>
>> Hi Naoko,
>> Thank you, I think the interest is there. I have been looking at some of the
>> raw data from the end of October but a more human readable format would
>> really help to get the picture instead of some individual comments (e.g.
>> missing toolbar buttons, not working gadgets/WikiEd, can't find the watch
>> button).
>>
>> (Note that a portion of the comments are indeed in English and it would be
>> really nice if you made the original Hungarian comments available as well
>> alongside any machine translation.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Bence
>>
>>
> Hi, Bence.
>
> The survey feedback from the Hungarian Wikipedia is now available with
> English translation.
>
> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments
> If the wiki page is too slow to load, you can go to the survey page
> directly.
> http://biturl.cc/bWQ
>
> The data only covers till December for now.
>
> We will review the translated comments, but if you find the machine
> translation is horribly broken, please give us a holler.
>
> Best,
>
> - Naoko
>
I forgot to mention that the survey and the translation integration was
made available by Roan Kattouw, Nimish Gautam and Howie Fung.

Thanks guys. You rock. :-)

- Naoko


>> On 28 March 2010 19:14, Naoko Komura <nkomura@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Bence Damokos wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is also a spreadsheet at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aikdcg5HdSKbdDVMM2l2SGM2dUtBU25MLUtTMFEwMFE&hl=hu
>>>
>>>
>>>> I wonder if the user comments and survey results for the Hungarian
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Wikipedia
>>>
>>>
>>>> are available anywhere? Hungarian is not included in the nice tables I
>>>>
>>>>
>>> found
>>>
>>>
>>>> on usability wiki, yet the retention rate is just below 60%.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Bence Damokos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hi, Bence.
>>>
>>> We can make the user comments from the Hungarain Wikipedia available
>>> along with other languages here, if there is an interest in reviewing
>>> the comments in Hungarian.
>>>
>>> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey/User_Comments
>>>
>>> We used the Google Translation to translate the comments for the ten
>>> languages prioritized by the size of traffic and the frequency of the
>>> beta usage.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> - Naoko
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 28 March 2010 00:23, Ariel T. Glenn <ariel@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I would look at the statistics published here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Beta_Feedback_Survey
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ariel
>>>>>
>>>>> Στις 28-03-2010, ημέρα Κυρ, και ώρα 02:08 +0300, ο/η Amir E. Aharoni
>>>>> έγραψε:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I join Akos - are complete statistics about Beta usage in all projects
>>>>>> published anywhere? Until now i only saw occasional numbers in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> occasional
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> blog posts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:01, Glanthor <glanthor@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just for curiosity, can we know the beta retention rate for huwiki?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Akos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> <אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Amir Elisha Aharoni
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://aharoni.wordpress.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "We're living in pieces,
>>>>>> I want to live in peace." - T. Moore
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikitech-l mailing list
>> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>>
>
>
>


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