Mailing List Archive

[Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
approve this.

Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
Even if it is only partially.

Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.

In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who
is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.

I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.

Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,

What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.

This is just the first week of this president!

I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
still starts to get concerning.

If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom
of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.

To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
actually move when the danger grows.

But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.

To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.


If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
should be protected.

Thank you.

Romaine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it unhackable.
Cheers,
Peyer

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
To: Wikimedia
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general

Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before something can be published about this topic, the government needs to approve this.

Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
Even if it is only partially.

Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad, out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.

In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand, apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.

I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.

Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,

What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment, disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.

This is just the first week of this president!

I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this still starts to get concerning.

If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.

To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would actually move when the danger grows.

But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.

To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.


If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and should be protected.

Thank you.

Romaine
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date: 01/26/17


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
line backups/
Thanks,
GerardM

On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> unhackable.
> Cheers,
> Peyer
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> To: Wikimedia
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
>
> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
> something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> approve this.
>
> Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> Even if it is only partially.
>
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
>
> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
>
> I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
>
> This is just the first week of this president!
>
> I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> still starts to get concerning.
>
> If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
>
> To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> actually move when the danger grows.
>
> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
>
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
>
>
> If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
> should be protected.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date: 01/26/17
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Database_download#Where_do_I_get_it.3F

Seddon

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hoi,
> No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> line backups/
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > unhackable.
> > Cheers,
> > Peyer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > To: Wikimedia
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> >
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> location
> > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> 01/26/17
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
four of them are outside U.S.

Best

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> line backups/
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > unhackable.
> > Cheers,
> > Peyer
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > To: Wikimedia
> > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> >
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> location
> > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> 01/26/17
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I would not consider the dumps to be backups. They are for purposes of
mirroring, research, analysis, offline reading and bot processing among
other things, but as a backup of our data they fall short. Not only are
they not up to the minute but they do not contain private data, as they are
intended for public use.

I should note here, though IANAL, that any restrictions that may be placed
on US government communications do not of course apply to the private
sector.
Having said that, I would like also to see offline backups happen, for
various reasons.

Ariel


On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 2:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.
>
> Best
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> > line backups/
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > > unhackable.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peyer
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > > To: Wikimedia
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> > >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
> I
> > > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
> understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> > location
> > > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> > 01/26/17
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 27 Jan 2017 at 13:10 Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.
>

Well technically that isn't all of the data / a backup ;)


>
> Best
>
> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:26 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > No they are not backed up outside the USA. I am not so sure there are off
> > line backups/
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 27 January 2017 at 10:10, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southwood@telkomsa.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I hope the servers are backed up outside the USA in at least two places
> > > and that the data is also backed up off-line somewhere to make it
> > > unhackable.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Peyer
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Romaine Wiki
> > > Sent: Friday, 27 January 2017 5:34 AM
> > > To: Wikimedia
> > > Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general
> > >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > > who is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration.
> I
> > > did not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do
> understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > > freedom of information, etc are important, I would think that the
> > location
> > > where the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> > > largest, I do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2016.0.7998 / Virus Database: 4749/13841 - Release Date:
> > 01/26/17
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 1:10 PM, Amir Ladsgroup <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes they are: https://dumps.wikimedia.org/mirrors.html and three out of
> four of them are outside U.S.

No images/files backup outside of US.

--
Milos

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
On 27 January 2017 at 03:33, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.



A working live backup copy of everything would be a good and important thing.

How easy is it to bring up, say, a fully working copy of en:wp,
starting from just backups? Has anyone in WMF tested this? A backup
not being a backup until it's been restored and verified.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and
almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on
releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will
start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private
sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the
predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases
to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of
the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when
actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the
mainstream media takes these and runs with them.

The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the
government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
the private sector.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
>... there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> the private sector.

If you mean the U.S. private sector, you're right. But otherwise, the
U.S. President is allowed to take a whole lot of actions which can
effectively censor non-citizens, and I've got some bad news pertaining
to one in particular involving compliance with European privacy
regulations which could potentially result in the deletion of records
including accounts of European citizens from hosting providers such as
Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Please see:

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/26/trump-signs-executive-order-stripping-non-citizens-of-privacy-ri/

"Enforcing privacy policies that specifically 'exclude persons who are
not United States citizens or lawful permanent residents,' while aimed
at enhancing domestic immigration laws, effectively invalidates
America's part of the Privacy Shield agreement, opens the current
administration up to sanctions by the EU and could lead our allies
across the Atlantic to suspend the agreement outright."

If Google is forced to delete all the personally identifying
information of European citizens because the President ordered U.S.
federal agencies to stop enforcing privacy policies, that would
effectively be an act of censorship on a scale without historical
precedent, would it not?

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement agencies.
IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with the
new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between governmental
agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing data
about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
are illegally in the country.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 6:13 PM, James Salsman <jsalsman@gmail.com> wrote:

> >... there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> > the private sector.
>
> If you mean the U.S. private sector, you're right. But otherwise, the
> U.S. President is allowed to take a whole lot of actions which can
> effectively censor non-citizens, and I've got some bad news pertaining
> to one in particular involving compliance with European privacy
> regulations which could potentially result in the deletion of records
> including accounts of European citizens from hosting providers such as
> Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, etc. Please see:
>
> https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/26/trump-signs-executive-
> order-stripping-non-citizens-of-privacy-ri/
>
> "Enforcing privacy policies that specifically 'exclude persons who are
> not United States citizens or lawful permanent residents,' while aimed
> at enhancing domestic immigration laws, effectively invalidates
> America's part of the Privacy Shield agreement, opens the current
> administration up to sanctions by the EU and could lead our allies
> across the Atlantic to suspend the agreement outright."
>
> If Google is forced to delete all the personally identifying
> information of European citizens because the President ordered U.S.
> federal agencies to stop enforcing privacy policies, that would
> effectively be an act of censorship on a scale without historical
> precedent, would it not?
>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:39 PM, John <phoenixoverride@gmail.com> wrote:

> Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
> Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
> agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement agencies.
> IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
> regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
> cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with the
> new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between governmental
> agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
> Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
> governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
> other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing data
> about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
> are illegally in the country.


There are plenty of news reports, available with a moment on Google, that
discuss the possibility that this executive order prevents the Commerce
department from fulfilling its enforcement role in the law that replaced
the Safe Harbor data protection agreement between the EU and the U.S. This
would invalidate the new agreement, jeopardizing the authorization of US
companies to handle data on European residents.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
The question is: Is it a legitimate issue or a sensationalized mole hill?
Given what I researched I am seeing more of a mole hill. Give it a few
days, odds are there will be clarification and this issue will blow over.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 7:39 PM, John <phoenixoverride@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Im not sure you are reading section 14 correctly. It makes reference to
> > Privacy Act (Privacy Act of 1974) and the privacy policy of the federal
> > agencies involved in immigration enforcement and law enforcement
> agencies.
> > IE the government can freely share information between agencies with
> > regards to non-citizens. If you look at the Privacy Act, it lists twelve
> > cases where data is permitted to be disclosed by federal agencies, with
> the
> > new order it allows all governmental data to be shared between
> governmental
> > agencies. Again none of this pertains to the Civilian sector. The Privacy
> > Shield really has nothing to do with the root issue. United States
> > governmental agencies sharing information about non-citizens with each
> > other. In the context of the actual document it is referencing sharing
> data
> > about non-citizens who are not legal residents of the United States, who
> > are illegally in the country.
>
>
> There are plenty of news reports, available with a moment on Google, that
> discuss the possibility that this executive order prevents the Commerce
> department from fulfilling its enforcement role in the law that replaced
> the Safe Harbor data protection agreement between the EU and the U.S. This
> would invalidate the new agreement, jeopardizing the authorization of US
> companies to handle data on European residents.
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I for one would really, really, really like to see full backup of all data
to servers outside USA, if necessary with anonymized contributors. A first
step would be to store digests for the revisions on alternate servers, and
make it possible to double check the validity of the content. That is, a
canary for the content.

No I don't think WMF would tamper with the content, but it might not be up
to them to stop it from happening.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
> something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> approve this.
>
> Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> Even if it is only partially.
>
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
>
> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who
> is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
>
> I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
>
> This is just the first week of this president!
>
> I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> still starts to get concerning.
>
> If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom
> of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
>
> To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> actually move when the danger grows.
>
> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
>
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
>
>
> If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
> should be protected.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I would be extremely surprised (and disappointed) if the Foundation didn't
have a plan of some sort for what to do if the legislative climate within
the US became unacceptable, as a part of their assessment of their risk
profile and as part of their risk management strategy. I remember coming
up with a similar scenario many years ago as part of a risk management
session for an organisation with a far narrower scope than the WMF.

Cheers,
Craig

On 27 January 2017 at 13:33, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that before
> something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> approve this.
>
> Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> Even if it is only partially.
>
> Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers in
> the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
>
> In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation, who
> is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
>
> I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
>
> Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
>
> What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
>
> This is just the first week of this president!
>
> I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> still starts to get concerning.
>
> If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech, freedom
> of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
>
> To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> actually move when the danger grows.
>
> But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
>
> To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
>
>
> If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right and
> should be protected.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Romaine
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Just to clarify; I want digests for revisions to make sue the whole
delivery chain can be trusted. That is signed end-to-end, including the
history (with time stamps).

And yes I trust no one, that includes myself.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
>
> Nathan said "*its only reasonable to consider a move of core **assets
> somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric*
> ?......
> *This is more challenging than I expected. Where will? ?*
> *we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset? ?**the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States*?"?


New Zealand would be a possibility it's showing to be a lot more
politically stable, and its neighbor Australia though it does have a
greater trust at a political level of the US Government along with a minor
notable "Republican trump like" political party but nowhere near the
extremism or any significant depth of support.

On 28 January 2017 at 09:12, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
GN.
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
I have created a Phabricator task here:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T156544

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full
backup for each language version, we have and store it in the
country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the
selection.

Regards,
Sir48-Thyge

2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>:

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
In this case I think its more than the projects that need to be protected,
there are a lot of resources based in the US that may need to be
distributed on a wider base including personal/private data already
collected by the WMF. There are already practical challenges ahead with US
visa changes including to the interview exemptions for 38 countries. WMF
may need to establish an office in a more accessible country and allow for
greater costs in travel.

On 28 January 2017 at 17:03, Thyge <ltl.privat@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not so challenging, Nathan -we just need to make a copy of a full
> backup for each language version, we have and store it in the
> country/countries where the language is spoken. This avoids any bias in the
> selection.
>
> Regards,
> Sir48-Thyge
>
> 2017-01-28 2:12 GMT+01:00 Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>:
>
> > Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
> turn
> > to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> > Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> > assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> > Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> > quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> > UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
> not
> > for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> > we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset
> > the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who
> > > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did
> > > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom
> > > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where
> > > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I
> > > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>



--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Hi!

Sorry, I had not the intention to write a Wikipedia article that is
balanced.

The only thing I tried to describe is some signals in the media that give
me concerns.

But I am sorry to say, but your reaction is something what I would call
naieve, and biased as well. You are free to think that way, as I think now
otherwise.

At this point in time I do not think full censorship will be implemented in
the US, but I found partially censorship (government) already very
concerning. And it is not just the government but a large number of
institutions that should deliver facts, but are no longer allowed to freely
publish facts. This also includes universities.

Yes, a government is free to determine what policy it chooses, but that
gives no reason to delete everything (read: all data) they do not like.
There is a big difference between chosing something different and ordering
to censor.

Also this will in the end lead to a situation that this will affect
everyone via an indirect route.

Freedom of press already is troubled by attacking media.

I do not say it will happen, but I say we should consider what options we
have if it would go wrong in any form we currently do not expect.

Romaine

Op vrijdag 27 januari 2017 heeft John <phoenixoverride@gmail.com> het
volgende geschreven:

> I must say the tone of the initial post to this is alarmingly biased and
> almost misleading. Yes the incoming president has placed a hold on
> releasing additional material. By no means does that imply that they will
> start censoring data that they release or in any way affect the private
> sector. Because the incoming president holds a opposite view as the
> predecessor it's not surprising that they would want to audit the releases
> to ensure that the data has a solid factual grounding. I've lost count of
> the number of research studies and papers that I have seen that when
> actually placed under a microscope don't hold up. However often the
> mainstream media takes these and runs with them.
>
> The United States is based on freedom of the press, not freedom of the
> government. there is zero chance that the president will be able to censor
> the private sector.
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Hi Nathan,

You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what
Wikimedia operates.

In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with
Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU
countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of
the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes
are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.

Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let
us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature,
humans, fire, etc.

To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent,
thus the risks are spread.

Romaine

Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> het volgende
geschreven:

> Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the turn
> to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if not
> for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that beset
> the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
>
> On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> before
> > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > approve this.
> >
> > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > Even if it is only partially.
> >
> > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data abroad,
> > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on servers
> in
> > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> >
> > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> who
> > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I did
> > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> >
> > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> >
> > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some time,
> >
> > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia and
> > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> >
> > This is just the first week of this president!
> >
> > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make sure
> > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > still starts to get concerning.
> >
> > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> freedom
> > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location where
> > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the largest, I
> > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> >
> > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > actually move when the danger grows.
> >
> > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the world.
> > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> >
> > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> >
> >
> > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> and
> > should be protected.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Romaine
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Concerns in general [ In reply to ]
Actually some parties might bring EU to low standards of freedom of
expression.
For what concerns Wikimedia, I fear more lobbying about copyright related
legislation or about net neutrality than USA turning into a dictatorship.
I'm not afraid of a complete service disruption but instead of things
getting more and more complicate in a globalized World being broken up. We
rely upon a level of freedom to move people and data (mainly among the two
shorelines of the Atlantic ocean) which has no precedents in human history.
Offline backups -to renew on yearly basis- are not so expensive to be
physically sent to chapters, or at least a certain number of chapters
meeting some requirements (e.g. a physical location, some IT, etc.). It
would instead be *hard* to rebuild an infrastructure almost from the
scratch.
What puzzles me is our ability to nullify impact of end of USA safe harbor
or (possible) or, for example, Netherlands ceasing net neutrality
(currently almost impossible) or similar kind of changes in any Country,
which doesn't imply dictatorship but still will have a significantly impact
over our operations.

Vito

2017-01-28 13:07 GMT+01:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>:

> Hi Nathan,
>
> You describe what I tried to say: threats to the environment in what
> Wikimedia operates.
>
> In the Netherlands there has been a government based on populism (with
> Geert Wilders) but the effects were very limited. The same in other EU
> countries. Political parties and political leaders in Europe are aware of
> the world wars that took place and are not out of the minds, so extremes
> are much less extreme. Even in comparison with the US now less extreme.
>
> Like the archives of Alexandria got lost due being stored in one place, let
> us not make that mistake again. Whatever the cause of troubles is, nature,
> humans, fire, etc.
>
> To me the most safe option would be to have a back up at every continent,
> thus the risks are spread.
>
> Romaine
>
> Op zaterdag 28 januari 2017 heeft Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> > Romaine makes some good points. There is a legitimate concern that the
> turn
> > to populism and unpredictability threatens the environment in which
> > Wikimedia operates, and its only reasonable to consider a move of core
> > assets somewhere safer from the unspooling of Western social fabric.
> > Perhaps the Netherlands is a good alternative, although Geert Wilders is
> > quite popular there... The United Kingdom, perhaps? Yet with Brexit and
> > UKIP, one wonders how safe Wikimedia would be there. Perhaps France, if
> not
> > for Marine Le Pen... This is more challenging than I expected. Where will
> > we find some place that is protected from the pernicious threats that
> beset
> > the Wikimedia Foundation in the United States?
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:33 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com
> > <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Today I was reading in the (international) news about websites with
> > > knowledge on the topic of climate change disappear from the internet as
> > > result of the Trump administration. The second thing I read is that
> > before
> > > something can be published about this topic, the government needs to
> > > approve this.
> > >
> > > Do you realise what the right word for this is? censorship.
> > > Even if it is only partially.
> > >
> > > Luckily there are many scientists working on getting all the data
> abroad,
> > > out of the US to ensure the research data is saved, including on
> servers
> > in
> > > the Netherlands where Trump (hopefully) has no reach.
> > >
> > > In the past week I was reading about the Internet Archive organisation,
> > who
> > > is making a back up in Canada because of the Trump administration. I
> did
> > > not understood this, you may call me naive, but now I do understand,
> > > apparently they have some visionary people at the Internet Archive.
> > >
> > > I miss a good answer to this situation from the Wikimedia Foundation.
> > >
> > > Trump is now promoting harassment and disrespect, already for some
> time,
> > >
> > > What signal is given to the rest of the world if an America based
> > > organisation is spreading the thought of a harassment free Wikipedia
> and
> > > the free word, while the president of the US is promoting harassment,
> > > disrespect and censorship on a massive scale.
> > >
> > > This is just the first week of this president!
> > >
> > > I am 100% sure everyone in the Wikimedia movement is willing to make
> sure
> > > Wikimedia faces no damage whatsoever, including in WMF, but to me this
> > > still starts to get concerning.
> > >
> > > If we as Wikimedia movement think that free knowledge, free speech,
> > freedom
> > > of information, etc are important, I would think that the location
> where
> > > the organisation is based is that country where liberty is the
> largest, I
> > > do not know where this is but it is definitely not the US.
> > >
> > > To my impression WMF is stuck in the US, so I do not believe they would
> > > actually move when the danger grows.
> > >
> > > But I think it is possible to make sure risks are spread over the
> world.
> > > Certainly as we are an international movement that intends to cover the
> > > knowledge of the whole humanoid civilisation.
> > >
> > > To come to a conclusion, I think WMF and the Wikimedia movement should
> > > think about a back-up plan if it actually goes wrong.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you do not agree with me: that is perfectly fine, that's your right
> > and
> > > should be protected.
> > >
> > > Thank you.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org <javascript:;>
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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