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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
Sad news indeed.
Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?

Best regards,
antanana
ED of Wikimedia Ukraine

2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>:

> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there is
> no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>
>
>
> *What is the situation?*
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
> the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
> years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
> was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult copyright
> situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do much much
> much more work than in most other countries, just to have a normal contest.
> The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
> wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
> is sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
> successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Hi Antanana,

And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
there the downside effects.

This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.

I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.

Romaine


2015-08-18 20:50 GMT+02:00 attolippip <attolippip@gmail.com>:

> Sad news indeed.
> Is there a public discussion about this issue anywhere?
> Can we get the WMF comments about it publicly?
>
> Best regards,
> antanana
> ED of Wikimedia Ukraine
>
> 2015-08-18 21:42 GMT+03:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sad news.
>> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
>> situation as it looks now.
>>
>> *Background*
>> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised by
>> many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this contest a
>> banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific countries to
>> attract attention from the public to participate in enriching Wikipedia
>> with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>>
>> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When there
>> is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as possible
>> participants are not informed and can't easily find the contest site. Also
>> participants need time to go on location to take photos and see the banner
>> above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way back.
>>
>>
>>
>> *What is the situation?*
>> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy during
>> the month September.
>> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
>> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>>
>> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been talks
>> about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments get only
>> 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>>
>> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
>> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is used,
>> and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the month
>> September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full weeks,
>> important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate, based on
>> the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15% of the
>> uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been expected.
>>
>> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>>
>> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
>> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the past
>> years.
>> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
>> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another month,
>> but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>>
>> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow it
>> was possible to move it for the second country.
>>
>> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
>> copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to do
>> much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have a
>> normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.
>>
>>
>> *My conclusion*
>> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the content
>> of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always thought that this
>> was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia movement. Did I made a
>> wrong assumption somehow?
>>
>> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt. This
>> is sad, very sad.
>>
>>
>> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve a
>> successful contest.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>>
>> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments this
>> year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
>> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
>> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Hi Romaine,

Sad to hear this. I remember running in the same situation a couple of
years ago (2013) when a really prominent "new privacy policy" banner was
put up for everyone with a high percentage for most of the month [1].
Back than I contacted the people at the WMF responsible for that. I got
some very polite replies that can be summed up as "our project is more
important than yours". The WMF owns the sites so if they feel like they
want to put up banners that conflict with WLM, they can just do that and
there is nothing we can do about that (besides complaining on mailing
lists).

Maarten

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=CentralNotice/Calendar&oldid=5844467

Romaine Wiki schreef op 18-8-2015 om 20:42:
> Hi all,
>
> Sad news.
> The title of this thread seems a bit hard, but that is practically the
> situation as it looks now.
>
> *Background*
> Wiki Loves Monuments is the yearly photo contest since 2010, organised
> by many local Wikipedia communities and local chapters. For this
> contest a banner is shown on top of Wikipedia pages in the specific
> countries to attract attention from the public to participate in
> enriching Wikipedia with photos of the local cultural heritage.
>
> Wiki Loves Monuments depends for at least 99% on the banner. When
> there is no banner, the uploads and results drop dramatically, as
> possible participants are not informed and can't easily find the
> contest site. Also participants need time to go on location to take
> photos and see the banner above Wikipedia afterwards to find their way
> back.
>
>
> *What is the situation?
> *
> * The fundraising team plans to have a fundraising banner in Italy
> during the month September.
> * The local team of Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy is organising the
> contest in Italy and needs a banner as well.
>
> As there can be shown only one banner at the time, there have been
> talks about these conflicting banners. Result: Wiki Loves Monuments
> get only 37,5% of the time, the fundraising banner 62,5% of the time.
>
> Now you maybe think that 37,5% of the time is still large, but the
> appearances are deceptive because of the different ways the banner is
> used, and because the differences in numbers of upload throughout the
> month September. Also the banner is not shown at all during two full
> weeks, important weeks to attract participants. In the end I estimate,
> based on the usage and issues of previous years, etc, that only 10-15%
> of the uploads are made in comparison what normally would have been
> expected.
>
> This is what I would call a devastating effect.
>
> And this is purely because of bad planning at WMF:
> * They haven't checked which countries participated continuously the
> past years.
> * They haven't informed which countries are likely to participate.
> * And they say they can't move the fundraising banner to another
> month, but it is still a mystery why that isn't possible.
>
> This same issue was originally the case in two countries, but somehow
> it was possible to move it for the second country.
>
> This is really sad for Italy. Extra sad because of the difficult
> copyright situation in Italy, what requires the local team already to
> do much much much more work than in most other countries, just to have
> a normal contest. The Italian team does a great job this year.
>
>
> *My conclusion*
> The community is working very hard on improving and expanding the
> content of Wikipedia by organising Wiki Loves Monuments. I always
> thought that this was the number one priority of the whole Wikimedia
> movement. Did I made a wrong assumption somehow?
>
> But when it actually matters, the community project bears the bunt.
> This is sad, very sad.
>
>
> Please all, support the Italian team, they do a great job and deserve
> a successful contest.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Romaine
>
>
>
> PS: I am one of the international organisers of Wiki Loves Monuments
> this year, but this e-mail is written on my personal account only.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wiki Loves Monuments mailing list
> WikiLovesMonuments@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikilovesmonuments
> http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Antanana,
>
> And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with also
> there the downside effects.
>
> This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
>
> I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
>
> Romaine
>
>
It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Really sad indeed. Specially for a country with such a complicated
situation as Italy.

Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be
possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation page?
I would expect targetting people that visit the page but doesn't donate,
or listing "other ways to help" after donation (a more standard one
about editing could be used, too). It won't have the same impact as a
banner, but it'd be an interesting approach.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.

The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and
can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.

The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited effect.

On 18.08.2015 23:31, Platonides wrote:
>
> Given that they are going to take you banner time, maybe they would be
> possible to be convinced to include a small "WLM ad" in the donation
> page?

--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
There's a more general problem here we should fix:

We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to run
a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

We should improve the effectiveness of all banners by showing them
conservatively. If most pageloads are completely banner free, banners will
likely have a greater impact when they are shown. And we should be able to
measure this: tracking how effective each % of visibility is at getting
clickthroughs for each banner. Making that sort of data immediately
visible to everyone who designs banners would be a great step forward.

Are WLM projects doing A/B testing of banner messages? Do you have access
to A/B test frameworks and results?

SJ




On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Antanana,
> >
> > And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
> also
> > there the downside effects.
> >
> > This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> > Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> > matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> > and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> > both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> > assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
> >
> > I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> > how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> > Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
> advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
> WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
> Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
> with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
It has been my experience that site banners are the best way to reach
casual readers who are not already integrated into the projects and
existing communication channels. This is why the Fundraising team run
banners, rather than begging for money through Facebook and targeted talk
page messages, I would imagine. The communications channels you're
referring to are excellent for reaching existing contributors, but when
you're trying to reach new or casual contributors, a big banner at the top
of articles can't be beat.

Cheers,
Craig

On 19 August 2015 at 05:18, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Antanana,
> >
> > And I forgot to mention, this same issue existed in 2014 as well, with
> also
> > there the downside effects.
> >
> > This subject is of banners has been discussed internally with the local
> > Wiki Loves Monuments team, after I tried to gave some insights in the
> > matter. I think this is done so because me and others have always thought
> > and assumed that it is possible to find a solution with understanding of
> > both sides. With these outcomes I think I can safely say that that
> > assumption and thought can't be considered realistic.
> >
> > I think it would be better in future to have the community decide somehow
> > how they perceive this matter. After all, they create the content of
> > Wikipedia and bear the bunt as result of it.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> >
> It seems like there are other communication channels you could take
> advantage of - other types of banners, bot-distributed talk page messages,
> WMF-assisted mass e-mail campaigns, social networking messages (FB,
> Twitter, etc.) and so on. Is it really true that having to share banners
> with fundraising will result in an unavoidable loss of 90% of contributors?
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>
> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to run
> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.

I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
- to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.

The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
it.

However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
and come back again to tell us about it".

The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.

I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
visible in some way when they come back.

Andrew.

--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very
easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).

And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count
the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).

Aubrey



On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
wrote:

> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> >
> > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to
> run
> > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.
>
> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>
> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> it.
>
> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> and come back again to tell us about it".
>
> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>
> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> visible in some way when they come back.
>
> Andrew.
>
> --
> - Andrew Gray
> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.

The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
majority of the people.

Romaine

2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:

> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's very
> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>
> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot count
> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>
> Aubrey
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > >
> > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason to
> > run
> > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to run.
> >
> > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> >
> > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > it.
> >
> > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > and come back again to tell us about it".
> >
> > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> >
> > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > visible in some way when they come back.
> >
> > Andrew.
> >
> > --
> > - Andrew Gray
> > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
banners in rotation.)

Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.

Risker/Anne

On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>
> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> majority of the people.
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
>
> > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> very
> > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
> > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
> > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> >
> > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
> > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> count
> > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> >
> > Aubrey
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
> > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > >
> > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason
> to
> > > run
> > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> run.
> > >
> > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
> > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > >
> > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
> > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
> > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > it.
> > >
> > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > >
> > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
> > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
> > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
> > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > >
> > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
> > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > >
> > > Andrew.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Andrew Gray
> > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Hi!

I think one point is skipped, before this should be discussed at all: why
is it not possible to move a banner to another month?
This question needs an answer first. Each time this problem occurs,
multiple years now in different occasions, the fundraising team says they
can't move the banner, but they have never provided any reasonable
explanation for that at all.

Because of the fundraising banner, this community project and the content
of both Wikipedia and Commons experience a huge loss. What makes the loss
is worth it for the movement?

That is the core question that needs an answer first in my opinion.

Romaine

2015-08-20 7:26 GMT+02:00 Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com>:

> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> >
> > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> this
> > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > majority of the people.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > very
> > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> top".
> > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> (in
> > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> > >
> > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> knows
> > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > count
> > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> > >
> > > Aubrey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
> > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > >
> > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason
> > to
> > > > run
> > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> > run.
> > > >
> > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> WLM
> > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > >
> > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> it,
> > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> the
> > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > >
> > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> off
> > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> upload
> > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> won't
> > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > >
> > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> to
> > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the
ones on Commons?

Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:
> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
>> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>>
>> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
>> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
>> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in this
>> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
>> majority of the people.
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
>> very
>>> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
>>> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
>>> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>>>
>>> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
>>> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
>> count
>>> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>>>
>>> Aubrey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>>> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>>>>>
>>>>> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
>>>>> dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason
>> to
>>>> run
>>>>> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
>> run.
>>>> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
>>>> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
>>>> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>>>>
>>>> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
>>>> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
>>>> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
>>>> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
>>>> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
>>>> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
>>>> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
>>>> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
>>>> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
>>>> and come back again to tell us about it".
>>>>
>>>> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
>>>> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
>>>> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
>>>> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
>>>> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
>>>> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
>>>> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
>>>> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
>>>> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
>>>> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
>>>> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
>>>> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
>>>> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
>>>> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>>>>
>>>> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
>>>> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
>>>> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
>>>> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
>>>> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
>>>> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
>>>> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
>>>> visible in some way when they come back.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
If a local community wants this, they can create such of course. But I
think most visitors from Wikipedia do not visit the Main Page.

2015-08-20 7:41 GMT+02:00 Ricordisamoa <ricordisamoa@openmailbox.org>:

> Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the ones
> on Commons?
>
>
> Il 20/08/2015 07:26, Risker ha scritto:
>
>> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
>> but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
>> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
>> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
>> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
>> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
>> least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
>> WLM
>> banners in rotation.)
>>
>> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
>> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
>> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
>> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
>> list.
>> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
>> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>>
>> Risker/Anne
>>
>> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
>>> organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
>>>
>>> The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
>>> Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
>>> content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
>>> this
>>> field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
>>> majority of the people.
>>>
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
>>>>
>>> very
>>>
>>>> easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the top".
>>>> It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest (in
>>>> Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
>>>>
>>>> And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody knows
>>>> homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
>>>>
>>> count
>>>
>>>> the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
>>>>
>>>> Aubrey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a more general problem here we should fix:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
>>>>>> dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason
>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>
>>>> run
>>>>>
>>>>>> a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
>>>>>>
>>>>> run.
>>>
>>>> I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
>>>>> to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like WLM
>>>>> - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see it,
>>>>> and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
>>>>> probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
>>>>> if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So the
>>>>> banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
>>>>> less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
>>>>> relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
>>>>> sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
>>>>> well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
>>>>> and come back again to tell us about it".
>>>>>
>>>>> The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
>>>>> person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go off
>>>>> to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
>>>>> it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to upload
>>>>> their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they won't
>>>>> really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
>>>>> something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
>>>>> probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
>>>>> the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
>>>>> involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
>>>>> information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
>>>>> easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
>>>>> action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
>>>>> importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
>>>>> generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
>>>>> Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
>>>>> clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
>>>>> provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return to
>>>>> make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
>>>>> fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
>>>>> visible in some way when they come back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Andrew Gray
>>>>> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
page?

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp@gmail.com>:

> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)
>
> Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing list.
> I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> >
> > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group of
> > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for showing
> > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> this
> > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > majority of the people.
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > very
> > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> top".
> > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> (in
> > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's English).
> > >
> > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> knows
> > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > count
> > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing page).
> > >
> > > Aubrey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu>
> wrote:
> > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > >
> > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a reason
> > to
> > > > run
> > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners to
> > run.
> > > >
> > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising experience
> > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> WLM
> > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > >
> > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> it,
> > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate, you
> > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either; while
> > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> the
> > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has progressively
> > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking for
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do something,
> > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > >
> > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> off
> > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can do
> > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> upload
> > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> won't
> > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else on
> > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > >
> > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard to
> > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on fundraising.
> > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some ways
> > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> to
> > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Why wmf needs to put a fundraising banner every year on wp. Isn't there enough money in Frisco?

Just wondering :)

> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:48:02 +1000
> From: jayvdb@gmail.com
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
>
> Would it be possible for the WLM banner to show on the Main Page only
> during 8-22 September, with the fundraising banner on every other
> page?
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
those years.

If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?

Romaine

2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarburg@googlemail.com>:

> Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF so
> urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
> Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp@gmail.com>:
>
> > I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
> here,
> > but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
> > options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> > perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> > Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
> > the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> > least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
> WLM
> > banners in rotation.)
> >
> > Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here; both
> > of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> > them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during that
> > specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
> list.
> > I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> > come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
> >
> > Risker/Anne
> >
> > On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> > >
> > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole group
> of
> > > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
> showing
> > > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> > this
> > > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for the
> > > majority of the people.
> > >
> > > Romaine
> > >
> > > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and it's
> > > very
> > > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> > top".
> > > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the contest
> > (in
> > > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's
> English).
> > > >
> > > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> > knows
> > > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we cannot
> > > count
> > > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing
> page).
> > > >
> > > > Aubrey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops off
> > > > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a
> reason
> > > to
> > > > > run
> > > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners
> to
> > > run.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising
> experience
> > > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners like
> > WLM
> > > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You see
> > it,
> > > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,
> you
> > > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;
> while
> > > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again. So
> > the
> > > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has
> progressively
> > > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide "I'll
> > > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they *do*,
> > > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking
> for
> > > > > it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do
> something,
> > > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > > >
> > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and go
> > off
> > > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can
> do
> > > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> > upload
> > > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> > won't
> > > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else
> on
> > > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where the
> > > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find WLM
> > > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard
> to
> > > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on
> fundraising.
> > > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some
> ways
> > > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to return
> > to
> > > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
I know the Italian Chapter, the online fundraising team, and community
liaisons have been talking about solutions for a while and I won’t get in
the way of that, but I thought I would offer a few ideas on some of the
online organizing tactics being discussed here. This probably falls in the
category of unsolicited advice and it might be bad advice at that. To
quote a good song, “It’s bad advice only if you use it.”

On the topic of limiting impressions, I agree that the fundraising use
case is different than WLM organizing. I am still fairly sure that there
has to something more effective than running a full-time banner for a
month. It would take testing a bunch of ideas to figure that out and
Central Notice has much more capacity now to test different things. We are
happy to help brainstorm ideas for that if anyone wanted.

I understand that WLM’s has a common organizing challenge in that it’s a
couple step process for participation. Would it make sense to prioritize a
“Sign up” or “Enter the Contest” feature on the landing pages that asks
people to submit their email addresses, so that you can followup with
them? I mention this because online fundraising has experimented with a
“Remind me later” feature on mobile where we have people enter their email
addresses, so that we can send them a followup fundraising email. It has
had some good results. It seems like having email addresses for followup
would help keep people engaged in WLM and you could also reach out to them
next year.

Lastly, we could add an appeal to participate in WLM to the thank you email
we send to donors in Italy. We would be happy to do it, if it’s useful.

Best regards,

Lisa

On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
wrote:

> This is not the first time this conflict appears, but this is the worst
> outcome ever so far. In all the years I have been asking for an explanation
> why it is not possible to move it, or why it is urgently to do it in
> September, nothing reasonable has been provided for that. Nothing in all
> those years.
>
> If a fundraising banner has a big negative influence on a project, I think
> it is time to have the community involved and have them speak out what they
> think about the situation. As FR only speaks to a few people, they seem to
> have the impression that they can freely decide without taking the
> community in account. I think it will be time to have the community speak
> out what they think in a request for comment/voting or something on Meta.
> Anyone an idea or the experience how to set such up?
>
> Romaine
>
> 2015-08-20 13:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarburg@googlemail.com>:
>
> > Which is Fundraising's point? I haven't seen anything here about why WMF
> so
> > urgently needs to request Italian donations in September.
> > Am 20.08.2015 07:27 schrieb "Risker" <risker.wp@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing
> > here,
> > > but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some
> other
> > > options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> > > perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> > > Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not
> quite
> > > the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> > > least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the
> > WLM
> > > banners in rotation.)
> > >
> > > Let's give ourselves permission to think outside the box a bit here;
> both
> > > of these activities are valuable and important to our movement, each of
> > > them have different but viable reasons for wanting to proceed during
> that
> > > specific period. There are a lot of smart people reading this mailing
> > list.
> > > I'd like to think between the several-hundred of us we might be able to
> > > come up with a solution that works to accommodate both groups.
> > >
> > > Risker/Anne
> > >
> > > On 20 August 2015 at 01:19, Romaine Wiki <romaine.wiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes, Andrew is right. Navigation is a very important focus point of
> > > > organising every Wiki Loves Monuments.
> > > >
> > > > The complexity of the navigation is that MediaWiki and the whole
> group
> > of
> > > > Wikimedia wikis is not designed for navigation, but designed for
> > showing
> > > > content. In the past eight years small improvements have been made in
> > > this
> > > > field, but in general speaking it is still not easy to navigate for
> the
> > > > majority of the people.
> > > >
> > > > Romaine
> > > >
> > > > 2015-08-19 20:45 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think Andrew is right: the WLM banner serves as a pointer, and
> it's
> > > > very
> > > > > easy to remember "go on Wikipedia and click into the banner on the
> > > top".
> > > > > It's much more difficult to remember the strange name of the
> contest
> > > (in
> > > > > Italy it's still called "Wiki Loves Monuments", even if it's
> > English).
> > > > >
> > > > > And of course we do not have good analytics for the banner: nobody
> > > knows
> > > > > homw many page views there are in a single wiki per day, so we
> cannot
> > > > count
> > > > > the clickthroughs (which we have as the link is on a WLM landing
> > page).
> > > > >
> > > > > Aubrey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 6:02 PM, Andrew Gray <
> > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On 19 August 2015 at 14:26, Sam Klein <sjklein@hcs.harvard.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > There's a more general problem here we should fix:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We already know that effectiveness of any single banner drops
> off
> > > > > > > dramatically after the first few views. So there's rarely a
> > reason
> > > > to
> > > > > > run
> > > > > > > a continuous banner -- certainly not if there are other banners
> > to
> > > > run.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think we should be cautious about using our fundraising
> > experience
> > > > > > to predict the efficiency of 'delayed call-to-action' banners
> like
> > > WLM
> > > > > > - to my mind they seem to function in quite different roles.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fundraising banner is calling for an immediate action. You
> see
> > > it,
> > > > > > and you either donate or you don't. If you decide not to donate,
> > you
> > > > > > probably won't decide to donate on seeing it tomorrow, either;
> > while
> > > > > > if you have donated, you're probably not going to donate again.
> So
> > > the
> > > > > > banner being repeated doesn't gain us much, and it has
> > progressively
> > > > > > less value on the third, fourth, fifth appearances. There are
> > > > > > relatively few people who see a fundraising banner and decide
> "I'll
> > > > > > sleep on it", then come back tomorrow and donate. And if they
> *do*,
> > > > > > well - there's a donate link on every page, once they're looking
> > for
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, WLM is calling for a delayed action - "go off, do
> > something,
> > > > > > and come back again to tell us about it".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most desired outcome is probably that a previously uninvolved
> > > > > > person will see it, click through, think "that sounds fun", and
> go
> > > off
> > > > > > to take some photos - after all, it's running all month, they can
> > do
> > > > > > it at the weekend. A few days later they come back, and want to
> > > upload
> > > > > > their photos... but if the banner's not there on Wikipedia, they
> > > won't
> > > > > > really know where to go. They might not remember the name ("Wiki
> > > > > > something?"), making it hard to search for the contest, and they
> > > > > > probably didn't bookmark the WLM pages. There isn't anything else
> > on
> > > > > > the page that would help to take them there, and if they're not
> > > > > > involved in the projects already they probably won't know where
> the
> > > > > > information's likely to be. If we can't make sure they can find
> WLM
> > > > > > easily when they return, then we've wasted the original call to
> > > > > > action, we've wasted the potential contributions, *and*, most
> > > > > > importantly, we've wasted their time and goodwill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think this difference in intended response styles makes it hard
> > to
> > > > > > generalise from the "diminishing returns" experienced on
> > fundraising.
> > > > > > Yes, a repeated banner will get progressively diminishing
> > > > > > clickthroughs. But with WLM, those second clickthroughs in some
> > ways
> > > > > > provide the "value" to the first clickthrough - they need to
> return
> > > to
> > > > > > make the campaign a success, which isn't really a concern for
> > > > > > fundraising. We need to make sure that that channel is open and
> > > > > > visible in some way when they come back.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Andrew Gray
> > > > > > andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 01.26 -0400, Risker ha scritto:
> [...] perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload
> images for Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible.

This might be a way to mitigate the problem, although I'm not sure
whether it's technically feasible.

Il giorno gio, 20/08/2015 alle 07.41 +0200, Ricordisamoa ha scritto:
> Any reasons the WLM 'banner' can't become a Main Page panel like the
> ones on Commons?

This could be another one.

Il giorno mar, 18/08/2015 alle 23.39 +0200, Ilario Valdelli ha scritto:
> Yes it can be possible without touching the fundraising's banner.
>
> The banner can be put in the Mediawiki:sitenotice in each project and
> can cohabitate with the fundraising's banner.
>
> The real problem is that a small banner can have only a limited
> effect.

And this one too (although I'm not a fan of this).

None of these will solve the problem, but I think they are worth of
consideration for it.wikipedia's community.

Lorenzo



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have arisen / could have been resolved locally.

Thanks,
Mike


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
persuaded; having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
any stretch of the imagination. The process was stopped because it was
costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
that results in much higher costs.

Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
common group affected. I think we really need to get better at scheduling
events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
advertising/banners/messaging for their success. The further in advance a
potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
solutions to those conflicts can be put into place. It would be really
helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
in planning major local activities.

I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

Risker/Anne





On 21 August 2015 at 16:22, Michael Peel <email@mikepeel.net> wrote:

> From my perspective, this strikes me as part of the reason why national
> organisations are well suited to running the Wikimedia fundraising
> campaigns rather than a global organisation: if WMIT was organising both
> WLM and the national fundraising campaign, then this conflict wouldn't have
> arisen / could have been resolved locally.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
On 20 August 2015 at 06:26, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can understand the frustration that members of WMIT are expressing here,
> but I also see Fundraising's point. I wonder if there are not some other
> options that could be considered. For example, instead of a banner,
> perhaps a big bright button on the sidebar that says "Upload images for
> Wiki Loves Monuments here!" may be technically feasible. It's not quite
> the equivalent of a banner, but it does address the wayfinding issue at
> least. (I think that's possibly the biggest downside of not having the WLM
> banners in rotation.)

I can see this working, to a degree. I think it would be quite
valuable serving the role of wayfinding for a returning contributor
looking for it - but I'm not sure it could effectively replace the
banner as a first port of call & way to attract attention.

Still, nothing ventured!

Some projects have restyled the globe logo for special occasions -
that might be another approach to consider.

--
- Andrew Gray
andrew.gray@dunelm.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves Monuments in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising [ In reply to ]
> Given the huge amount of work, the liability and legislative issues and
> problems with transferring funds across international borders, I'm not
> persuaded;

Hence why I said "part"; this wasn't meant to be a persuasive argument, it was just a comment on this particular issue. The other topics you mention should probably be discussed in a different thread.

> having dozens of paid fundraising teams is not cost-effective by
> any stretch of the imagination. The process was stopped because it was
> costing more money to raise funds that way, and as a movement it's very,
> very difficult to justify the international level of fundraising in a way
> that results in much higher costs.

{{citation needed}} please. That's an interesting perspective that I haven't heard before, and I haven't seen any supporting evidence for that argument. But again, that is a different discussion.

> Having said that, the Wikimedia movement calendar is becoming
> increasingly complex. It is inevitable that there are going to be conflicts
> between major local initiatives and major international-level initiatives;
> these don't always involve fundraising, although they're probably the most
> common group affected. I think we really need to get better at scheduling
> events and creating a solid movement-wide calendar that identifies major
> activities, particularly those that rely significantly on site
> advertising/banners/messaging for their success. The further in advance a
> potential conflict is identified, the more likely that good and effective
> solutions to those conflicts can be put into place. It would be really
> helpful, for example, if the Fundraising calendar was published a year in
> advance; chapters and other groups would probably find that really useful
> in planning major local activities.

That was my point: if we worked on a national rather than international basis as a baseline, then this sort of issue simply wouldn't arise.

> I this specific case, there's not much time left, and so it is time to look
> for ways to lessen the impact of the scheduling conflict.

I agree with this.

Thanks,
Mike

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