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[Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10
Hi!

I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list
of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
announcing this?

Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot


--
*Salvador Alcántar*
*@salvador_alc*
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Il 06/07/2015 07:31, Salvador A ha scritto:
> Hi!
>
> I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list
> of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1]

Let's call them "non-redirect pages in the main namespace containing the
text '[['", please.

> It seems it happened during
> this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> announcing this?
>
> Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
>
>

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
I think these wikis have been on that list for a while. I don't know the
specifics of why they're there, though, or comment on the depth/quality of
the articles on the wikis.

Joe

On Sun, 5 Jul 2015 at 22:32 Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list
> of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> announcing this?
>
> Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
>
>
> --
> *Salvador Alcántar*
> *@salvador_alc*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a "real"
impact.



On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list
> of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> announcing this?
>
> Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
>
>
> --
> *Salvador Alcántar*
> *@salvador_alc*
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>




--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
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Tel: +41764821371
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
The 1,2+ M articles on species generated by LsjBot from COL
(CatalogueOfLife) was completed in September 2014.

Now under way by Lsjbot is generation of geographic entities from
GeoNames [1]. Still being in an early phase and there is a lot to look
into like the links to Wikidata. A testrun has been for done for
entities on Samoa where the potential can be seen , [2]

I am very aware that the approach to botgenerated articles differs on
different language versions (I think in my last count I found it to be
practiced in volumes in around 15 language versions) . I also am very
aware that article count is not the best measurement of versions
substance content. But bot generation is one path in our common quest to
create free knowledge for all and it definitely generated real impact.

Anders


[1] http://www.geonames.org/ it contains 9 M enties, but certainly not
all of these will be generated and many of the entities already exist

[2] example https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faleata_East

Salvador A skrev den 2015-07-06 07:31:
> Hi!
>
> I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list
> of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> announcing this?
>
> Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
>
>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
While the quality of the articles is not something I care to discuss. The
main thing of the many articles is that as a result of the existence of
these articles, the number of readers of these languages has gone up and
hte number of editors has gone up as well.

Our aim is to share in the sum of all knowledge. This is information that
is available to us. In my opinion it is better than nothing, it proves its
case. The absolute quality of no information is a 100% fail rate.

If the WMF is honest about its aim, it forgets about ubiquitous information
(English can be had everywhere) and puts its effort in bringing information
out where there is none. Even in English.

Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 08:22, Joseph Fox <josephfoxwiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think these wikis have been on that list for a while. I don't know the
> specifics of why they're there, though, or comment on the depth/quality of
> the articles on the wikis.
>
> Joe
>
> On Sun, 5 Jul 2015 at 22:32 Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the
> list
> > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > announcing this?
> >
> > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > *@salvador_alc*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/GuidelinesWikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
How do you know that there is no impact ?

https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows
clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same is
true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of
speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a "real"
> impact.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the
> list
> > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > announcing this?
> >
> > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> >
> > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > *@salvador_alc*
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers

An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
encyclopedia?

Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this case
these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of its
pilaster.

In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in the
first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
engines.

But an impact is something that produces "effects" and "dissemination". I
don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page view)
and nothing else.

If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations must
change.

It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
"mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality and
will generate more and more effects.

Regards



On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> How do you know that there is no impact ?
>
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows
> clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same is
> true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of
> speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> "real"
> > impact.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the
> > list
> > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened during
> > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > > announcing this?
> > >
> > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki and
> > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > >
> > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > Skype: valdelli
> > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > >
> > Tel: +41764821371
> > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469>
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia.

The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
edited.

You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the final
analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is EXACTLY
the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
>
> An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> encyclopedia?
>
> Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this case
> these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of its
> pilaster.
>
> In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in the
> first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> engines.
>
> But an impact is something that produces "effects" and "dissemination". I
> don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page view)
> and nothing else.
>
> If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations must
> change.
>
> It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality and
> will generate more and more effects.
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> >
> > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows
> > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same
> is
> > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of
> > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > "real"
> > > impact.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi!
> > > >
> > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside
> the
> > > list
> > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> during
> > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a little
> > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > > > announcing this?
> > > >
> > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki
> and
> > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot work.[2]
> > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > Wikimedia CH
> > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > Skype: valdelli
> > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > >
> > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist.

As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT tools
to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be
welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the
integration with Wikipedia is done in a right manner and are at the service
of the overall communities.

Regards

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia.
>
> The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> edited.
>
> You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the final
> analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is EXACTLY
> the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> >
> > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > encyclopedia?
> >
> > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this
> case
> > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of
> its
> > pilaster.
> >
> > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in the
> > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > engines.
> >
> > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and "dissemination". I
> > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> view)
> > and nothing else.
> >
> > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations
> must
> > change.
> >
> > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality and
> > will generate more and more effects.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > >
> > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> shows
> > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same
> > is
> > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of
> > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > > "real"
> > > > impact.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi!
> > > > >
> > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside
> > the
> > > > list
> > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> > during
> > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> little
> > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > > > > announcing this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki
> > and
> > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> work.[2]
> > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > >
> > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > Skype: valdelli
> > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > >
> > Tel: +41764821371
> > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469>
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
I'm a bot operator in Persian Wikipedia (~500K articles) and I'm directly
or indirectly responsible for creating more than half of the articles in
that Wiki using automated or semi-automated tools that I built. If our
language used Latin alphabet, we definitely would be one of the five
biggest wikis.

I'm telling this to emphasize I'm not against bot-creating articles in
general but I agree this is not the way we build Wikipedia.

We create articles of Wikipedia for people to read. Even if your articles
has a very low quality eventually someone will improve it [1] but articles
that have reader. How many of these articles will be read by people?
Honestly I think 100K out of the 1M was enough.

That's why we created articles by bot in broad topics in Persian Wikipedia
(minor planets 16K, villages of Iran 70K, national heritages of Iran 20K,
cities of the world ~20K, chemical compounds 10-20K) because 20K articles
in same topic attracts less then half of reader comparing to combination of
10K in one topic and 10K in another topic.

[1]: IPs can't create article, we enabled it once, disaster. but they can
edit articles (low-quality-bot-created articles) and it attracts to add
something and after a while they become a regular editor. That's why
Persian Wikipedia has one of the highest growth rate in number of users and
active users. So bot-created articles can be useful but not this way.
Best

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia.
>
> The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> edited.
>
> You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the final
> analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is EXACTLY
> the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> >
> > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > encyclopedia?
> >
> > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this
> case
> > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of
> its
> > pilaster.
> >
> > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in the
> > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > engines.
> >
> > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and "dissemination". I
> > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> view)
> > and nothing else.
> >
> > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations
> must
> > change.
> >
> > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality and
> > will generate more and more effects.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > >
> > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> shows
> > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same
> > is
> > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of
> > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > > "real"
> > > > impact.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi!
> > > > >
> > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside
> > the
> > > > list
> > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> > during
> > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> little
> > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a thread
> > > > > announcing this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed it.wiki
> > and
> > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> work.[2]
> > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > >
> > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > Skype: valdelli
> > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > >
> > Tel: +41764821371
> > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Amir
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
does not exist.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to provide
it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our best
is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes they
may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 11:42, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist.
>
> As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT tools
> to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be
> welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the
> integration with Wikipedia is done in a right manner and are at the service
> of the overall communities.
>
> Regards
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an
> encyclopaedia.
> >
> > The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> > edited.
> >
> > You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> final
> > analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> > Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> > to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> > the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> > missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> > articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is
> EXACTLY
> > the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> > >
> > > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > > encyclopedia?
> > >
> > > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this
> > case
> > > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of
> > its
> > > pilaster.
> > >
> > > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> > > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in
> the
> > > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > > engines.
> > >
> > > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> "dissemination". I
> > > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> > view)
> > > and nothing else.
> > >
> > > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations
> > must
> > > change.
> > >
> > > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> > > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality
> and
> > > will generate more and more effects.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > > >
> > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> > shows
> > > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The
> same
> > > is
> > > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number
> of
> > > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > > > "real"
> > > > > impact.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> inside
> > > the
> > > > > list
> > > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> > > during
> > > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> > little
> > > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> thread
> > > > > > announcing this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> it.wiki
> > > and
> > > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> > work.[2]
> > > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > > >
> > > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > Wikimedia CH
> > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > Skype: valdelli
> > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > >
> > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Wikidata like Commons is a project in its own right. Its aim is to
contribute to the aim of the Wikimedia Foundation first and to other
projects second.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 11:42, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist.
>
> As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT tools
> to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be
> welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the
> integration with Wikipedia is done in a right manner and are at the service
> of the overall communities.
>
> Regards
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an
> encyclopaedia.
> >
> > The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> > edited.
> >
> > You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> final
> > analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> > Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> > to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> > the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> > missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> > articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is
> EXACTLY
> > the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> > >
> > > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > > encyclopedia?
> > >
> > > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this
> > case
> > > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of
> > its
> > > pilaster.
> > >
> > > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> > > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in
> the
> > > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > > engines.
> > >
> > > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> "dissemination". I
> > > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> > view)
> > > and nothing else.
> > >
> > > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations
> > must
> > > change.
> > >
> > > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> > > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality
> and
> > > will generate more and more effects.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > > >
> > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> > shows
> > > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The
> same
> > > is
> > > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number
> of
> > > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > > > "real"
> > > > > impact.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> inside
> > > the
> > > > > list
> > > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> > > during
> > > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> > little
> > > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> thread
> > > > > > announcing this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> it.wiki
> > > and
> > > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> > work.[2]
> > > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > > >
> > > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > Wikimedia CH
> > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > Skype: valdelli
> > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > >
> > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Yes, and in this case I am saying that the bot populated Wikipedias are
"bad" products because qualitatively poor, instead of an architecture of a
data population and a creation of articles through Wikidata or through a
central repository.

Basically it's for a control of the content.

A bot populated article can widespread an error or an outdated information
in all web pages if there is not control of the community, instead a
central repository like Wikidata facilitates this control.

The same concept of Wikipedia is in discussion.

It's an encyclopedia, but another encyclopedia (may we can it "botpedia"?).

Regards

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
> does not exist.
>
> I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
> product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to provide
> it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our best
> is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
> ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes they
> may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
> arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:42, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist.
> >
> > As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT
> tools
> > to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be
> > welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the
> > integration with Wikipedia is done in a right manner and are at the
> service
> > of the overall communities.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an
> > encyclopaedia.
> > >
> > > The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> > > edited.
> > >
> > > You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> > final
> > > analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> > > Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is
> possible
> > > to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and
> cache
> > > the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> > > missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> > > articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is
> > EXACTLY
> > > the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > > > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> > > >
> > > > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > > > encyclopedia?
> > > >
> > > > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In
> this
> > > case
> > > > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one
> of
> > > its
> > > > pilaster.
> > > >
> > > > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a
> demonstration
> > > > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in
> > the
> > > > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > > > engines.
> > > >
> > > > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> > "dissemination". I
> > > > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> > > view)
> > > > and nothing else.
> > > >
> > > > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of
> evaluations
> > > must
> > > > change.
> > > >
> > > > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported
> by a
> > > > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality
> > and
> > > > will generate more and more effects.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > > > >
> > > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> > > shows
> > > > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The
> > same
> > > > is
> > > > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number
> > of
> > > > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact
> without a
> > > > > "real"
> > > > > > impact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <
> salvador1983@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> > inside
> > > > the
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it
> happened
> > > > during
> > > > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> > > little
> > > > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> > thread
> > > > > > > announcing this?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> > it.wiki
> > > > and
> > > > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> > > work.[2]
> > > > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > >
> > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilario Valdelli
> > Wikimedia CH
> > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > Skype: valdelli
> > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > >
> > Tel: +41764821371
> > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Arguably the same is true for Wikipedia. Many faulty articles exist. There
are many list articles incomplete because people do not maintain them.
Wikilinks refer to the wrong information. Incomplete information is often
as bad as wrong information. Badly written articles are bad particularly
when they confuse more than elaborate. There are plenty of these.

The notion of control ... REALLY ? It is ll too easy to find curated lists
with proven information (like all the lakes of Sweden). Who needs control
when the source of the data is impeccable ? Given Wikipedia the notion of
control is rather weird given the amount of not satisfactory discussions
that lead to arguably faulty and confusing articles.

The point is not that human written Wikipedia articles are not a good
thing. The point is that they are not always the best we can do. A bot
generated article wins hands down from no article in any language when the
information is solid.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 12:08, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, and in this case I am saying that the bot populated Wikipedias are
> "bad" products because qualitatively poor, instead of an architecture of a
> data population and a creation of articles through Wikidata or through a
> central repository.
>
> Basically it's for a control of the content.
>
> A bot populated article can widespread an error or an outdated information
> in all web pages if there is not control of the community, instead a
> central repository like Wikidata facilitates this control.
>
> The same concept of Wikipedia is in discussion.
>
> It's an encyclopedia, but another encyclopedia (may we can it "botpedia"?).
>
> Regards
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
> > does not exist.
> >
> > I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
> > product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to
> provide
> > it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our
> best
> > is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
> > ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes they
> > may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
> > arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:42, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist.
> > >
> > > As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT
> > tools
> > > to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be
> > > welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the
> > > integration with Wikipedia is done in a right manner and are at the
> > service
> > > of the overall communities.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an
> > > encyclopaedia.
> > > >
> > > > The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> > > > edited.
> > > >
> > > > You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> > > final
> > > > analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing
> information.
> > > > Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is
> > possible
> > > > to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and
> > cache
> > > > the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would
> bring
> > > > missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> > > > articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is
> > > EXACTLY
> > > > the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > > > > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> > > > >
> > > > > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > > > > encyclopedia?
> > > > >
> > > > > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In
> > this
> > > > case
> > > > > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one
> > of
> > > > its
> > > > > pilaster.
> > > > >
> > > > > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a
> > demonstration
> > > > > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed
> in
> > > the
> > > > > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in
> search
> > > > > engines.
> > > > >
> > > > > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> > > "dissemination". I
> > > > > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure
> (page
> > > > view)
> > > > > and nothing else.
> > > > >
> > > > > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of
> > evaluations
> > > > must
> > > > > change.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported
> > by a
> > > > > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in
> quality
> > > and
> > > > > will generate more and more effects.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> > > > shows
> > > > > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views.
> The
> > > same
> > > > > is
> > > > > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar
> number
> > > of
> > > > > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > GerardM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact
> > without a
> > > > > > "real"
> > > > > > > impact.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <
> > salvador1983@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> > > inside
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it
> > happened
> > > > > during
> > > > > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> > > > little
> > > > > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> > > thread
> > > > > > > > announcing this?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> > > it.wiki
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> > > > work.[2]
> > > > > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario
> >
> > > > > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> > ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > > >
> > > > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > Wikimedia CH
> > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > > Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> > > Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> > > Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > Skype: valdelli
> > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > >
> > > Tel: +41764821371
> > > http://www.wikimedia.ch
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ilario Valdelli
> Wikimedia CH
> Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
> Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
> Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> Skype: valdelli
> Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> >
> Tel: +41764821371
> http://www.wikimedia.ch
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
I would consider this discussion as a sensible one if you are editors of
Cebuano and Waray-Waray Wikipedias, oppose the idea of creating
bot-generated articles and have better plan how to increase quality and
quantity of those projects. Optionally, you are always free to offer your
help to those projects and start working.

Without such actions, I see opposition to that work as vanity expression:
It's not fair that they have bigger than ours.

Article count is a valid measurement and it says exactly how many articles
exist in Wikipedia in particular language. I hope this tautology is clear
enough.

Conclusions based on article count may vary, but, don't worry, they are not
about the greatness of your Wikipedia community or your ethnolinguistic
group.

What makes sense -- and thus I am replying to Amir's message -- is to build
repository of common knowledge and best practices related to bot generated
articles.
On Jul 6, 2015 12:15, "Amir Ladsgroup" <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm a bot operator in Persian Wikipedia (~500K articles) and I'm directly
> or indirectly responsible for creating more than half of the articles in
> that Wiki using automated or semi-automated tools that I built. If our
> language used Latin alphabet, we definitely would be one of the five
> biggest wikis.
>
> I'm telling this to emphasize I'm not against bot-creating articles in
> general but I agree this is not the way we build Wikipedia.
>
> We create articles of Wikipedia for people to read. Even if your articles
> has a very low quality eventually someone will improve it [1] but articles
> that have reader. How many of these articles will be read by people?
> Honestly I think 100K out of the 1M was enough.
>
> That's why we created articles by bot in broad topics in Persian Wikipedia
> (minor planets 16K, villages of Iran 70K, national heritages of Iran 20K,
> cities of the world ~20K, chemical compounds 10-20K) because 20K articles
> in same topic attracts less then half of reader comparing to combination of
> 10K in one topic and 10K in another topic.
>
> [1]: IPs can't create article, we enabled it once, disaster. but they can
> edit articles (low-quality-bot-created articles) and it attracts to add
> something and after a while they become a regular editor. That's why
> Persian Wikipedia has one of the highest growth rate in number of users and
> active users. So bot-created articles can be useful but not this way.
> Best
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an
> encyclopaedia.
> >
> > The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> > edited.
> >
> > You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> final
> > analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> > Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> > to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> > the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> > missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> > articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is
> EXACTLY
> > the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> > >
> > > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > > encyclopedia?
> > >
> > > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this
> > case
> > > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of
> > its
> > > pilaster.
> > >
> > > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
> > > that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in
> the
> > > first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
> > > engines.
> > >
> > > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> "dissemination". I
> > > don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page
> > view)
> > > and nothing else.
> > >
> > > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations
> > must
> > > change.
> > >
> > > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
> > > "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality
> and
> > > will generate more and more effects.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > > >
> > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> > shows
> > > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The
> same
> > > is
> > > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number
> of
> > > > speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact without a
> > > > "real"
> > > > > impact.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A <salvador1983@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> inside
> > > the
> > > > > list
> > > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it happened
> > > during
> > > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> > little
> > > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> thread
> > > > > > announcing this?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> it.wiki
> > > and
> > > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> > work.[2]
> > > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
> does not exist.
>
> I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
> product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to provide
> it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our best
> is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
> ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes they
> may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
> arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
> Thanks,

This is a kind of discussion that cyclically comes back, and I guess
there is no correct answer. Wikipedia was born on the internet, and is
designed to work on the internet, which means that as soon as it
provides good links and good connection between links, it helps to get
access to knowledge. It is not something that is supposed to be read
from the beginning to the end (it's simply too big), so it is
difficult to talk about the quality of the product as a whole. There
are good articles, bad articles, wrong articles, uncovered topics; so
the experience really depends on the reader's needs. Automatically
created articles generally offer a good base, they're as accurate as
their sources in providing basic data, and are often a good base to
build upon. In some cases no one will build upon them, but even thus
they do fulfill a need. Indicators are a simplification of a more
complex object, so they can only tell a limited amount of things. We
know that article count can be inflated by automatically creating
stubs on very specialistic topics, average page weight by adding
code-rich templates and so on, but as soon as people are aware of the
fact, I don't see the problem.

We are now at a stage where a huge number of articles already exist,
and where a big share of the creation content can be automated; if we
stop now building the encyclopedia, we still have a great product that
can help people; a lot of data could be kept up to date using only
automated tools, although it will eventually look "old". At the end of
the day, classical Latin literature has had no active community for
centuries, and is still perfectly usable.

Marco (Cruccone)

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Given that this is the Wikimedia mailing list, the assumption that
Wikipedia is primary is not necessary. The objective of the Wikimedia
Foundation is in this more relevant. Consequently the balance for an
argument is different.

I blog often about issues with Wikidata and Wikipedia. I often inform about
approaches that make Wikidata more relevant and I am quite happy with the
progress that has been made.

However, Wikipedia think does harm Wikidata.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 6 July 2015 at 12:40, Marco Chiesa <chiesa.marco@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
> > does not exist.
> >
> > I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
> > product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to
> provide
> > it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our
> best
> > is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
> > ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes they
> > may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
> > arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
> > Thanks,
>
> This is a kind of discussion that cyclically comes back, and I guess
> there is no correct answer. Wikipedia was born on the internet, and is
> designed to work on the internet, which means that as soon as it
> provides good links and good connection between links, it helps to get
> access to knowledge. It is not something that is supposed to be read
> from the beginning to the end (it's simply too big), so it is
> difficult to talk about the quality of the product as a whole. There
> are good articles, bad articles, wrong articles, uncovered topics; so
> the experience really depends on the reader's needs. Automatically
> created articles generally offer a good base, they're as accurate as
> their sources in providing basic data, and are often a good base to
> build upon. In some cases no one will build upon them, but even thus
> they do fulfill a need. Indicators are a simplification of a more
> complex object, so they can only tell a limited amount of things. We
> know that article count can be inflated by automatically creating
> stubs on very specialistic topics, average page weight by adding
> code-rich templates and so on, but as soon as people are aware of the
> fact, I don't see the problem.
>
> We are now at a stage where a huge number of articles already exist,
> and where a big share of the creation content can be automated; if we
> stop now building the encyclopedia, we still have a great product that
> can help people; a lot of data could be kept up to date using only
> automated tools, although it will eventually look "old". At the end of
> the day, classical Latin literature has had no active community for
> centuries, and is still perfectly usable.
>
> Marco (Cruccone)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Gerard, an interesting statistic is that you have chosen to post 7 out of
the 16 emails on this thread in under 2 hours.

Perhaps you might benefit from considering what list subscribers are
expecting and want filling their inboxes, before posting more?

Thanks
Fae ... mobile
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Yes, my concern is not to populate articles with data, because it is
normal.

The recent approach of Wikidata to be connected with data repositories and
to harvest data and to feed Wikidata is the best approach.

My concern is connected with the old approach to have a local repository
(probably outdated) to feed wikipedia articles and not only in one
language, but in several languages, because it can work if there is a
community that takes these articles in charge if there is not an automatic
process to updated them.

Personally I consider it a "bad" product and a "bad" architecture. The bots
have been used in the past because there was not a central repository, but
it has been a workaround in my opinion, best or worst it is difficult to
say, that time is was the best because no other possibilities were present,
at the moment it can be considered an old approach, and in my opinion a bad
approach.

To make a comparison is like to propose handwritten books when there is the
possibility to have a print machine... I would not imagine the time taken
to update the handwritten books instead of to print a new edition of a
book, it's natural that when the print machine was not present, the hands
were the single tool available and the single solution.

The idea to invite people to edit with the sample justification that the
presence of a stub invites to edit doesn't justify the approach because
Cebuan and Waray Waray have not increased active editors since 2014.

The single change happened is only more presence of those language in the
web, useful or not useful to the web crawlers is another question.


On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> Given that this is the Wikimedia mailing list, the assumption that
> Wikipedia is primary is not necessary. The objective of the Wikimedia
> Foundation is in this more relevant. Consequently the balance for an
> argument is different.
>
> I blog often about issues with Wikidata and Wikipedia. I often inform about
> approaches that make Wikidata more relevant and I am quite happy with the
> progress that has been made.
>
> However, Wikipedia think does harm Wikidata.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 12:40, Marco Chiesa <chiesa.marco@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hoi,
> > > When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that
> > > does not exist.
> > >
> > > I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the
> > > product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to
> > provide
> > > it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the best we can. Our
> > best
> > > is NOT sitting on our hands keeping information that is available to
> > > ourselves for secondary reasons. Yes, we can write articles and yes
> they
> > > may be better but as long as we do not provide information we do a half
> > > arsed job. A job that is qualitatively and quantitatively inferior.
> > > Thanks,
> >
> > This is a kind of discussion that cyclically comes back, and I guess
> > there is no correct answer. Wikipedia was born on the internet, and is
> > designed to work on the internet, which means that as soon as it
> > provides good links and good connection between links, it helps to get
> > access to knowledge. It is not something that is supposed to be read
> > from the beginning to the end (it's simply too big), so it is
> > difficult to talk about the quality of the product as a whole. There
> > are good articles, bad articles, wrong articles, uncovered topics; so
> > the experience really depends on the reader's needs. Automatically
> > created articles generally offer a good base, they're as accurate as
> > their sources in providing basic data, and are often a good base to
> > build upon. In some cases no one will build upon them, but even thus
> > they do fulfill a need. Indicators are a simplification of a more
> > complex object, so they can only tell a limited amount of things. We
> > know that article count can be inflated by automatically creating
> > stubs on very specialistic topics, average page weight by adding
> > code-rich templates and so on, but as soon as people are aware of the
> > fact, I don't see the problem.
> >
> > We are now at a stage where a huge number of articles already exist,
> > and where a big share of the creation content can be automated; if we
> > stop now building the encyclopedia, we still have a great product that
> > can help people; a lot of data could be kept up to date using only
> > automated tools, although it will eventually look "old". At the end of
> > the day, classical Latin literature has had no active community for
> > centuries, and is still perfectly usable.
> >
> > Marco (Cruccone)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>



--
Ilario Valdelli
Wikimedia CH
Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
Association pour l’avancement des connaissances libre
Associazione per il sostegno alla conoscenza libera
Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
Skype: valdelli
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Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469>
Tel: +41764821371
http://www.wikimedia.ch
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and Cebuano
communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to how
this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm
whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of
existing editors dealing with too many newbies at once, my suspicion is
that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the ratio of
PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can access
the necessary character sets.

We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to
speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some readers
become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth rate
that a wiki community can cope with.

There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate that
by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they haven't
been edited on the Cebuano or Waray-waray Wikipedias. Otherwise within a
decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various
record holders whose articles in other languages show their records have
been surpassed, and villages

WereSpielChequers
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Amir makes a good point that it is easier to improve an article than to create it. Bot created articles would be particularly useful on en: for the many thousands of organisms that do not have an article yet. I run into missing articles all the time in marine organisms, but do not have the time or inclination to create them. I would have the time and inclination to improve some of them if they were there as well formatted stubs, with section headers to indicate where and what was missing. Creating an article for an organism requires repetitive actions to a fixed formula. It is work which can be automated and as I see it, should be automated, as it is boring and tedious, and I have to look up how to do it every time, so it is unlikely that I will do it most times. There are plenty of articles which perhaps should not be created by a bot, but that should not stop the ones that should be done that way. If people think they artificially inflate the article count, give them a category like bot-stub and don’t count them until a human has upgraded them to a better category.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:wikimedia-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Amir Ladsgroup
Sent: 06 July 2015 11:49 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

I'm a bot operator in Persian Wikipedia (~500K articles) and I'm directly or indirectly responsible for creating more than half of the articles in that Wiki using automated or semi-automated tools that I built. If our language used Latin alphabet, we definitely would be one of the five biggest wikis.

I'm telling this to emphasize I'm not against bot-creating articles in general but I agree this is not the way we build Wikipedia.

We create articles of Wikipedia for people to read. Even if your articles has a very low quality eventually someone will improve it [1] but articles that have reader. How many of these articles will be read by people?
Honestly I think 100K out of the 1M was enough.

That's why we created articles by bot in broad topics in Persian Wikipedia (minor planets 16K, villages of Iran 70K, national heritages of Iran 20K, cities of the world ~20K, chemical compounds 10-20K) because 20K articles in same topic attracts less then half of reader comparing to combination of 10K in one topic and 10K in another topic.

[1]: IPs can't create article, we enabled it once, disaster. but they can edit articles (low-quality-bot-created articles) and it attracts to add something and after a while they become a regular editor. That's why Persian Wikipedia has one of the highest growth rate in number of users and active users. So bot-created articles can be useful but not this way.
Best

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:54 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia.
>
> The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> edited.
>
> You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the
> final analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is
> possible to generate them on the fly based on information from
> Wikidata and cache the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of
> technology that would bring missing information to any Wikipedia
> without distorting the number of articles for people who only care
> about editors and editing. It is EXACTLY the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
> > https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
> >
> > An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
> > encyclopedia?
> >
> > Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In
> > this
> case
> > these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one
> > of
> its
> > pilaster.
> >
> > In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a
> > demonstration that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if
> > it is placed in the first places of the ranking because it will be
> > best ranked in search engines.
> >
> > But an impact is something that produces "effects" and
> > "dissemination". I don't see impact because the bot has increased
> > only one measure (page
> view)
> > and nothing else.
> >
> > If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of
> > evaluations
> must
> > change.
> >
> > It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported
> > by a "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in
> > quality and will generate more and more effects.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > How do you know that there is no impact ?
> > >
> > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm
> shows
> > > clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The
> > > same
> > is
> > > true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar
> > > number of speakers. Please explain how this is not a real impact !
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > On 6 July 2015 at 10:20, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is an example about how to produce a "formal" impact
> > > > without a
> > > "real"
> > > > impact.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A
> > > > <salvador1983@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi!
> > > > >
> > > > > I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are
> > > > > inside
> > the
> > > > list
> > > > > of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it
> > > > > happened
> > during
> > > > > this weekend. Maybe in the case of Waray Wikipedia happened a
> little
> > > > > before. Somebody knows when did it was exactly? Did I miss a
> > > > > thread announcing this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Waray-waray is now the 6th place and Cebuano has surpassed
> > > > > it.wiki
> > and
> > > > > es.wiki and gained the place number 8, mainly due to Lsjbot
> work.[2]
> > > > > Definitely a milestone in Wikipedia and bots history.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wikipedias
> > > > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsjbot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > *Salvador Alcántar*
> > > > > *@salvador_alc*
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
> ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilario Valdelli
> > > > Wikimedia CH
> > > > Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens Association pour
> > > > l’avancement des connaissances libre Associazione per il
> > > > sostegno alla conoscenza libera Switzerland - 8008 Zürich
> > > > Wikipedia: Ilario <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ilario>
> > > > Skype: valdelli
> > > > Facebook: Ilario Valdelli <https://www.facebook.com/ivaldelli>
> > > > Twitter: Ilario Valdelli <https://twitter.com/ilariovaldelli>
> > > > Linkedin: Ilario Valdelli <
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=6724469
> > > > >
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows
> clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views.
It's a shame we don't have filtered page view data: it'd be good to
know whether all those new articles are being read by people or just
bots.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
I can probably speak for those communities. On the whole, the logic behind the Lsjbot experiment was simple: build it and they will come.

So far though, this hasn’t happened. We from the Tagalog Wikipedia were also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when bot-generated articles are made: the community is overwhelmed. Out of that fear, we declined to participate.

One of the concerns some editors in the Philippines have (and these are sentiments I share) is that these two Wikipedias turn us into a laughingstock, willing to increase article numbers at any cost. At one point, the Cebuano Wikipedia was described as a Wikipedia of French communes, not content relevant to Cebu or Cebuanos. I don’t think we’d like that with other Wikipedias in the Philippines or elsewhere.

Regards,

Josh

> Wiadomość napisana przez WereSpielChequers <werespielchequers@gmail.com> w dniu 6 lip 2015, o godz. 04:52:
>
> These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and Cebuano
> communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to how
> this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm
> whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of
> existing editors dealing with too many newbies at once, my suspicion is
> that this will vary by language depending on such variables as the ratio of
> PC users to smartphone users, and the ease with which editors can access
> the necessary character sets.
>
> We have long known that bot creation of stubs that are of interest to
> speakers of a language is a way to recruit readers, and that some readers
> become editors. What I think we don't yet know is the maximum growth rate
> that a wiki community can cope with.
>
> There is also a sustainability angle, though hopefully we can mitigate that
> by bot replacing of articles where the source has changed but they haven't
> been edited on the Cebuano or Waray-waray Wikipedias. Otherwise within a
> decade we could have pedias that look very dated, for example various
> record holders whose articles in other languages show their records have
> been surpassed, and villages
>
> WereSpielChequers
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JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
Bachelor of Arts in Political Science
Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines

jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com <mailto:jamesjoshualim@yahoo.com> | +63 (915) 321-7582
Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
http://about.me/josh.lim <http://about.me/josh.lim>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
Why not to focus on that technology instead of bots?
Then every Wikipedia could benefit from Lsjbot's sources, without
polluting the article namespace but still providing information to
readers and incentive to editors.
That is EXACTLY what Reasonator and AutoDesc already do.
Content would be generated on the fly so: no irreversibility, no
out-of-date information.
Thanks,
Ricordisamoa

Il 06/07/2015 11:24, Gerard Meijssen ha scritto:
> Hoi,
> I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia.
>
> The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is
> edited.
>
> You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the final
> analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing information.
> Arguably it is not needed to save them as articles because it is possible
> to generate them on the fly based on information from Wikidata and cache
> the results but that is EXACTLY the kind of technology that would bring
> missing information to any Wikipedia without distorting the number of
> articles for people who only care about editors and editing. It is EXACTLY
> the kind of technology I would welcome the WMF to explore.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 6 July 2015 at 11:09, Ilario Valdelli <valdelli@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers
>> https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers
>>
>> An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an
>> encyclopedia?
>>
>> Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this case
>> these projects are demonstrating that Wikipedia can renounce to one of its
>> pilaster.
>>
>> In my opinion the impact of Waray Waray or of Cebuan is a demonstration
>> that any "strange" language can have a big traffic if it is placed in the
>> first places of the ranking because it will be best ranked in search
>> engines.
>>
>> But an impact is something that produces "effects" and "dissemination". I
>> don't see impact because the bot has increased only one measure (page view)
>> and nothing else.
>>
>> If the impact must be produced with SEO, the parameters of evaluations must
>> change.
>>
>> It is different when a bot is running in an encyclopedia supported by a
>> "mature" community, because the articles will be improved in quality and
>> will generate more and more effects.
>>
>> Regards


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