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[Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list
So I have been on the moderation list for this mailing list for 10 months now.

In the meantime, I have had perfectly valid e-mails sent to this list
rejected without a reason, and my appeal not getting any response
whatsoever from the moderators.

If this were a wiki, everyone would be shouting themselves hoarse at
having people blocked for such a long time, and seemingly without any
means of protesting such decisions.

However, this being a mailing list, with the moderation team having no
accountability to anyone, and abusing their status multiple times in
the past year, such decisions come without any discussion -- mostly
because they are made behind closed doors in the spirit of Wikimedia
transparency.

So, here is my good-faith attempt at getting taken off the moderation
list after ten months of waiting, and perhaps having a stab at finally
establishing at least some basic rules of moderator behaviour so that
we do not see long-term good-faith contributors hushed up due to
expressing criticisms.

-- Tomasz

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
I did attempt a getting a discussion going on defining some moderation
and appeal guidelines last year on meta, but it died of death after
some unfortunately pointy disruptive interventions. At the moment
moderation can happen without warning, without a rationale being given
when requested and with no possibility of appeal.

Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
without a clear explanation or evidence, questions about it after a
year on moderation being met with silence (which itself just seem
unnecessarily hostile) and having emails unposted for up to 18 days at
at time, it would be great to have a best practice defined for all
Wikimedia lists as to:
* when a moderation rational is expected, such as for well established
contributors on request
* a reasonable appeal process, such as on a meta page devoted to appeals

The current absence of a system just encourages drama and polarization
of viewpoints, confuses readers as emails held for a long time on
moderation get posted retrospectively into old discussions, and
ignores one of our basic principles on Wikimedia projects that
improvement and reform should be encouraged. We have plenty of
examples of people being disruptive for a time on projects who later
become some of our top contributors, possibly as these are
dissatisfied people pushing for change; there is no reason to think
that email lists are different.

Fae

On 9 June 2015 at 11:33, Tomasz W. Kozłowski <twkozlowski@gmail.com> wrote:
> So I have been on the moderation list for this mailing list for 10 months now.
>
> In the meantime, I have had perfectly valid e-mails sent to this list
> rejected without a reason, and my appeal not getting any response
> whatsoever from the moderators.
>
> If this were a wiki, everyone would be shouting themselves hoarse at
> having people blocked for such a long time, and seemingly without any
> means of protesting such decisions.
>
> However, this being a mailing list, with the moderation team having no
> accountability to anyone, and abusing their status multiple times in
> the past year, such decisions come without any discussion -- mostly
> because they are made behind closed doors in the spirit of Wikimedia
> transparency.
>
> So, here is my good-faith attempt at getting taken off the moderation
> list after ten months of waiting, and perhaps having a stab at finally
> establishing at least some basic rules of moderator behaviour so that
> we do not see long-term good-faith contributors hushed up due to
> expressing criticisms.
>
> -- Tomasz
--
faewik@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:

> Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
> without a clear explanation or evidence,


This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
started again after promising you'd stop.

You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
Thanks.

Note that secret complaints or allegations that are not shared, are neither
evidence nor a clear rationale for the moderated person.

An open and transparent process is desirable for everyone.

Fae
On 9 Jun 2015 13:04, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
> > without a clear explanation or evidence,
>
>
> This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
> wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
> repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
> started again after promising you'd stop.
>
> You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
funny, close list, close decisions, heavy moderation... this is away more
present on Wikimedia Movement than should be, but the speech is always the
opposite...
The "free" is just a slogan, it's not a value...


On 9 June 2015 at 09:24, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks.
>
> Note that secret complaints or allegations that are not shared, are neither
> evidence nor a clear rationale for the moderated person.
>
> An open and transparent process is desirable for everyone.
>
> Fae
> On 9 Jun 2015 13:04, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
> > > without a clear explanation or evidence,
> >
> >
> > This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
> > wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
> > repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
> > started again after promising you'd stop.
> >
> > You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton
rodrigo.argenton@gmail.com
+55 11 979 718 884
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
The farther you go from actually wiki the more cabals you get. Secret
teams, secret decisions, powers in single hand or in hand of a tiny
group of people selected by criteria unknown. It goes for lists, chats,
social media pages and whatever out-of-wiki stuff. It's too sad why
can't wikimedia way of open transparent collaboration and discussion be
extended on all wikimedia related activity. I'm a naïve person and just
don't get it. Aren't we the same people when onwiki and offwiki?

This one example is just one of the many others.

It's obvious that such a thing as moderation of a list should be done by
some rules. It's not a tiny list where just believing in common sense of
moderators can work. Moderation is like RfD of a sort. We don't just
have random admins deleting pages onwiki as they wish. Why do we have it
this way with messages on list?

Can someone bring an RfC or whatever large thing onwiki in order to have
it regulated finally?

--Base

On 09.06.2015 20:28, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:
> funny, close list, close decisions, heavy moderation... this is away more
> present on Wikimedia Movement than should be, but the speech is always the
> opposite...
> The "free" is just a slogan, it's not a value...
>
>
> On 9 June 2015 at 09:24, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Note that secret complaints or allegations that are not shared, are neither
>> evidence nor a clear rationale for the moderated person.
>>
>> An open and transparent process is desirable for everyone.
>>
>> Fae
>> On 9 Jun 2015 13:04, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
>>>> without a clear explanation or evidence,
>>>
>>> This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
>>> wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
>>> repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
>>> started again after promising you'd stop.
>>>
>>> You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.
>>>
>>>
>>> - d.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
"on-wiki" and "off-wiki" are concepts that get talked about a lot without
critical examination. As I understand it, the issue of something happening
"off-wiki" is often that a certain entity (for instance, English
Wikipedia's ArbCom) has no ability to enforce what happens off the site,
and little ability to verify that a person using a username elsewhere is
the same person.

But that isn't an issue with a mailing list. Nobody is proposing that any
specific wiki have jurisdiction over a mailing list.

A mailing list of the size and significance of Wikimedia-L should have
reliable and reasonable governance. I am pretty confident that we don't
have it here because Wikimedia-L has grown gradually from an earlier time
when governance was less necessary -- not out of any ill intent of any
person or people.

Fae, I'm glad to hear you started a discussion about this on Meta. Can you
provide a link, or start where it left off? What's required, I think, is
that (1) somebody presents a proposal, (2) the proposal gets discussed and
refined, and then (3) we have some kind of process for establishing whether
there is broad buy-in.

Who's ready to take that first step? I'd be happy to engage in
deliberations around this, but I don't have a specific proposal in mind to
start things off.

As to Tomasz' specific request, I strongly support it. I vaguely recall
hearing about him being placed on moderation, and thinking it was an overly
harsh step -- but to hear that it's gone on for 10 months, and that some of
his messages have not been allowed through in the meantime, does sound
problematic to me. Tomasz is a thoughtful and valued member of the
Wikimedia world, and this list is a better list if it's informed by his
perspective.

Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Bohdan Melnychuk <base-w@yandex.ru> wrote:

> The farther you go from actually wiki the more cabals you get. Secret
> teams, secret decisions, powers in single hand or in hand of a tiny group
> of people selected by criteria unknown. It goes for lists, chats, social
> media pages and whatever out-of-wiki stuff. It's too sad why can't
> wikimedia way of open transparent collaboration and discussion be extended
> on all wikimedia related activity. I'm a naïve person and just don't get
> it. Aren't we the same people when onwiki and offwiki?
>
> This one example is just one of the many others.
>
> It's obvious that such a thing as moderation of a list should be done by
> some rules. It's not a tiny list where just believing in common sense of
> moderators can work. Moderation is like RfD of a sort. We don't just have
> random admins deleting pages onwiki as they wish. Why do we have it this
> way with messages on list?
>
> Can someone bring an RfC or whatever large thing onwiki in order to have
> it regulated finally?
>
> --Base
>
>
> On 09.06.2015 20:28, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:
>
>> funny, close list, close decisions, heavy moderation... this is away more
>> present on Wikimedia Movement than should be, but the speech is always the
>> opposite...
>> The "free" is just a slogan, it's not a value...
>>
>>
>> On 9 June 2015 at 09:24, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Note that secret complaints or allegations that are not shared, are
>>> neither
>>> evidence nor a clear rationale for the moderated person.
>>>
>>> An open and transparent process is desirable for everyone.
>>>
>>> Fae
>>> On 9 Jun 2015 13:04, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <faewik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
>>>>> without a clear explanation or evidence,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
>>>> wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
>>>> repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
>>>> started again after promising you'd stop.
>>>>
>>>> You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - d.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
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>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
See:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l and

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines

and their talk pages.

Regards, Richard.

On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth@gmail.com> wrote:

> <snip>
> Who's ready to take that first step? I'd be happy to engage in
> deliberations around this, but I don't have a specific proposal in mind to
> start things off.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moderation rules for this mailing list [ In reply to ]
Thank you Richard. Yes, no doubt those are excellent venues for discussing
and refining proposals and so forth. But neither one establishes the kind
of governance Tomasz has mentioned. For instance, while those pages mention
moderation in passing, they don't say anything about:
* how moderators are/should be selected
* how they should go about their duties
* what should happen when list members disagree with specific decisions
* what should happen when list members feel there is a pattern of unhealthy
decisions
* whether moderators' terms ever end

And the talk pages have no new proposals this year.

If we want to get to a better place with this, somebody needs to lead the
charge.

Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:21 PM, Richard Ames <richard@ames.id.au> wrote:

> See:
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l and
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>
> and their talk pages.
>
> Regards, Richard.
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Pete Forsyth <peteforsyth@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> > Who's ready to take that first step? I'd be happy to engage in
> > deliberations around this, but I don't have a specific proposal in mind
> to
> > start things off.
> >
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