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[Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users
Hi,

Is there any plan to allow using the "Thanks" feature to thank anonymous
Wikimedia users?

A Hebrew Wikipedia user asked me about this, saying that it may be even
more useful to thank anons than logged-in users.

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Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
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I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 08.01.2014 15:22, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan to allow using the "Thanks" feature to thank
> anonymous
> Wikimedia users?
>
> A Hebrew Wikipedia user asked me about this, saying that it may be
> even
> more useful to thank anons than logged-in users.
>

How would they know someone thanked them?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
Something like the "new message" orange bar :)

I guess that designers and Growth people may know an answer, but all
thoughts are welcome.


--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
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‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


2014/1/8 Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>

> On 08.01.2014 15:22, Amir E. Aharoni wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Is there any plan to allow using the "Thanks" feature to thank anonymous
>> Wikimedia users?
>>
>> A Hebrew Wikipedia user asked me about this, saying that it may be even
>> more useful to thank anons than logged-in users.
>>
>>
> How would they know someone thanked them?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
We should thank them for editing using a major banner, a la the fundraiser.
I don't know why we do huge fundraising drives but seem to neglect editing
drives, even though editing is really the core way for people to donate to
Wikimedia.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
Amir E. Aharoni, 08/01/2014 15:32:
> Something like the "new message" orange bar :)

Yeah, orange bar be blessed.

>
> I guess that designers and Growth people may know an answer, but all
> thoughts are welcome.

As long as the orange bar works (it doesn't on mobile, beware), you can
just use a variant of the many {{thanks}} templates and post them on
their talk pages with some JavaScript mimicking the "thanks" button.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
* Nathan wrote:
>We should thank them for editing using a major banner, a la the fundraiser.
>I don't know why we do huge fundraising drives but seem to neglect editing
>drives, even though editing is really the core way for people to donate to
>Wikimedia.

That would make many editors very annoyed and angry and drive them away.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net> wrote:

> * Nathan wrote:
> >We should thank them for editing using a major banner, a la the
> fundraiser.
> >I don't know why we do huge fundraising drives but seem to neglect editing
> >drives, even though editing is really the core way for people to donate to
> >Wikimedia.
>
> That would make many editors very annoyed and angry and drive them away.


I very seriously doubt that is the case, and if they object to efforts to
publicly attract new editors to Wikimedia projects... Banners irritate
people, but anyone with a sincere interest in contributing to Wikimedia
should be able to accept the necessity of maintaining both the financial
and human resources of the movement.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
> > * Nathan wrote:
> > >We should thank them for editing using a major banner, a la the
> > fundraiser.
> >
> > That would make many editors very annoyed and angry and drive them away.
>
> I very seriously doubt that is the case.... Banners irritate
> people, but anyone with a sincere interest in contributing to Wikimedia
> should be able to accept the necessity of maintaining both the financial
> and human resources of the movement.
>

This is just what I was going to say. That would be charming; we could
ensure that each IP only sees it once per year. SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
Agreed.
It's nice to feel the community behind Wikipedia (well, when it doesn't
bite you)
and the feeling that somebody noticed you fixed a typo is even nicer.

Aubrey


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Bjoern Hoehrmann <derhoermi@gmx.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > * Nathan wrote:
> > > >We should thank them for editing using a major banner, a la the
> > > fundraiser.
> > >
> > > That would make many editors very annoyed and angry and drive them
> away.
> >
> > I very seriously doubt that is the case.... Banners irritate
> > people, but anyone with a sincere interest in contributing to Wikimedia
> > should be able to accept the necessity of maintaining both the financial
> > and human resources of the movement.
> >
>
> This is just what I was going to say. That would be charming; we could
> ensure that each IP only sees it once per year. SJ
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a single
IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
anonymous editors.

Ryan Kaldari
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 10/01/14 19:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a single
> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
> anonymous editors.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
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1. Why not?
2. A time limit might help resolve that with ipv4 addresses.
Alternately, thanks could potentially be nice even if they didn't make
the edit themselves, since it's the general feeling and such, so just
letting that through for ipv4 addresses might be an option.

Mind I'm mostly just echoing something someone else said on IRC just
now, but they seem like interesting points to me.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
with the person, I assume.


On 10 January 2014 12:11, Isarra Yos <zhorishna@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 10/01/14 19:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
>
>> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
>> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
>> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
>> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
>> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a single
>> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
>> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
>> anonymous editors.
>>
>> Ryan Kaldari
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
> 1. Why not?
> 2. A time limit might help resolve that with ipv4 addresses. Alternately,
> thanks could potentially be nice even if they didn't make the edit
> themselves, since it's the general feeling and such, so just letting that
> through for ipv4 addresses might be an option.
>
> Mind I'm mostly just echoing something someone else said on IRC just now,
> but they seem like interesting points to me.
>
>
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>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
"I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
anonymous editors."

Not completely correct when it comes to public computers and mobile IPs.


On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Oliver Keyes <okeyes@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
> with the person, I assume.
>
>
> On 10 January 2014 12:11, Isarra Yos <zhorishna@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/01/14 19:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> >
> >> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> >> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
> >> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
> >> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
> >> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a
> single
> >> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
> >> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
> >> anonymous editors.
> >>
> >> Ryan Kaldari
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> > 1. Why not?
> > 2. A time limit might help resolve that with ipv4 addresses. Alternately,
> > thanks could potentially be nice even if they didn't make the edit
> > themselves, since it's the general feeling and such, so just letting that
> > through for ipv4 addresses might be an option.
> >
> > Mind I'm mostly just echoing something someone else said on IRC just now,
> > but they seem like interesting points to me.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
>
> --
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> Product Analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On that occasion, do IPs still receive information about messages on their
talk page? (Since the orange bar was abolished and they now go through echo
notifications all well)
Am 10.01.2014 21:29 schrieb "Oliver Keyes" <okeyes@wikimedia.org>:

> For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
> with the person, I assume.
>
>
> On 10 January 2014 12:11, Isarra Yos <zhorishna@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/01/14 19:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> >
> >> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> >> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
> >> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
> >> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
> >> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a
> single
> >> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
> >> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
> >> anonymous editors.
> >>
> >> Ryan Kaldari
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >>
> >
> > 1. Why not?
> > 2. A time limit might help resolve that with ipv4 addresses. Alternately,
> > thanks could potentially be nice even if they didn't make the edit
> > themselves, since it's the general feeling and such, so just letting that
> > through for ipv4 addresses might be an option.
> >
> > Mind I'm mostly just echoing something someone else said on IRC just now,
> > but they seem like interesting points to me.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Product Analyst
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
I would very much enjoy notifications as an IP & for IPs.

We can make a few carve-outs:
- major hubs (schools, businesses, wifi providers with thousands of users)
can be excluded.

The message/framing to IPs would be slightly different than that for
logged-in users: since we can't be sure it's the same person. Nevertheless
we could make it fun for them to see the wall of comments left for the last
user of that IP, and any global notifications for it.

The same message could highlight that they are logged out, in case they
didn't realize (right now it's not easy to notice when you get logged out
in the middle of a session, unless you've set a custom skin / color in your
prefs).

SJ


On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari@wikimedia.org>wrote:

> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a single
> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
> anonymous editors.
>
> Ryan Kaldari
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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>



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
I think we should just thank everyone, on at least a yearly basis, with a
"thank you" drive similar to what we do for fundraising. It doesn't need to
be for a specific edit or tied to any one IP. After the fundraiser hits the
goal we usually run it a little with a thank you banner, and if we did that
separately and used it to encourage participation by our readers, all the
projects should benefit.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 10 January 2014 20:28, Oliver Keyes <okeyes@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
> with the person, I assume.



Apparently that's the reason.

However, being able to thank IP contributors for their contribution
would be FANTASTIC. Saying "thank you" to casual drive-by contributors
would give them quite a buzz, I'd think.

Perhaps a timeout? Say, you can thank an IP for their edit within 1
hour? We can experiment and see what time gives the best amount of
thanks versus mistakes.


- d.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
The downside of this is when we inevitably start thanking vandals by accident.

Kevin Rutherford

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 10, 2014, at 4:03 PM, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10 January 2014 20:28, Oliver Keyes <okeyes@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>> For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
>> with the person, I assume.
>
>
>
> Apparently that's the reason.
>
> However, being able to thank IP contributors for their contribution
> would be FANTASTIC. Saying "thank you" to casual drive-by contributors
> would give them quite a buzz, I'd think.
>
> Perhaps a timeout? Say, you can thank an IP for their edit within 1
> hour? We can experiment and see what time gives the best amount of
> thanks versus mistakes.
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
Yeah. It shouldn't be like welcome messages, it should be specifically
for thanking for good edits.

But this is a cultural issue, not a software issue.

On 10 January 2014 21:30, Kevin Rutherford <ktr101@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The downside of this is when we inevitably start thanking vandals by accident.
>
> Kevin Rutherford
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jan 10, 2014, at 4:03 PM, "David Gerard" <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10 January 2014 20:28, Oliver Keyes <okeyes@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> For 1: because it'd be impossible to accurately associate notifications
>>> with the person, I assume.
>>
>>
>>
>> Apparently that's the reason.
>>
>> However, being able to thank IP contributors for their contribution
>> would be FANTASTIC. Saying "thank you" to casual drive-by contributors
>> would give them quite a buzz, I'd think.
>>
>> Perhaps a timeout? Say, you can thank an IP for their edit within 1
>> hour? We can experiment and see what time gives the best amount of
>> thanks versus mistakes.
>>
>>
>> - d.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
David Gerard, 10/01/2014 22:02:
> However, being able to thank IP contributors for their contribution
> would be FANTASTIC. Saying "thank you" to casual drive-by contributors
> would give them quite a buzz, I'd think.

You already can, even on the unwelcoming ;) en.wiki and de.wiki: talk
pages have not (yet) been killed.
I think about 30-50k persons have been thanked with the simple
{{grazie}} template on it.wiki across the years.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cross-project_comparisons#Thanks

> Perhaps a timeout? Say, you can thank an IP for their edit within 1
> hour? We can experiment and see what time gives the best amount of
> thanks versus mistakes.

On it.wiki, anonymous talk pages are purged monthly (with some conditions).

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 11 Jan 2014, at 6:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> ...
> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address

They already share talk page and contribs. I don't see notifications being a problem: each of them *knows* that the IP is shared, and has registration instructions readily available if such situation is a problem.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 11/01/14 06:21, Ryan Kaldari wrote:
> These are two reason we don't have Thanks for anonymous editors:
> 1. Anonymous editors don't get notifications
> 2. Multiple editors often share the same IP address
> Problem #2 isn't as prominent as it use to be, but there are still many
> large companies and schools that connect to the internet through a single
> IP. I imagine that once IPv6 is widely in use, this problem will go away
> and we'll be able to turn on all notifications (including Thanks) for
> anonymous editors.

We could have a persistent cookie with an ID number assigned to
anonymous users, and send messages to that. Then anons would get their
messages despite roaming between IP addresses, and they wouldn't get
messages for other people who happen to share their IP.

We could even allocate a row in the user table for them, which would
be beneficial for various features that currently exclude anons due to
the need to link to a user ID.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 01/12/2014 10:57 PM, Tim Starling wrote:
> We could even allocate a row in the user table for them, which would
> be beneficial for various features that currently exclude anons due to
> the need to link to a user ID.

What you're discussing is an unnamed user account that's implicitly
created and lasts as long as the cookie does. Those are going to pile
up *really* fast, especially from browsers that do not keep cookies for
any reason.

They could be cleaned up at interval, but then what attribution do edit
gets? The IP as though there wasn't a cookie?

More questions that'd need to be answered: do you keep that user table
row around for checkuser? (And I would say that the checkusers will
demand that you do). What about talk pages? Use whichever IP's happens
to be in use to have a User talk:Anonymous_192837? Do we keep /those/
around indefinitely?

Don't get me wrong; I would *love* to get rid of "anonymous-by-IP" users
- they give /less/ privacy than an account do. But the UX is
complicated to get right, and the needed code changes would be
pervasive. For instance, you'd want users to be able to intuitively
"import" what they did anonymously into a newly created account in a way
that their IP will never have been shown.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
On 13/01/14 15:35, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
> What you're discussing is an unnamed user account that's implicitly
> created and lasts as long as the cookie does. Those are going to pile
> up *really* fast, especially from browsers that do not keep cookies for
> any reason.

Not as fast as revisions, and we seem to cope with those. On the
English Wikipedia, there were only ~27k anonymous edits per day over
the last month, so it would take 10 years to add 100M rows at that
rate, and the revision table has ~550M rows and we still haven't
bothered to shard it.

-- Tim Starling



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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Thanking anonymous users [ In reply to ]
I really really wish we could thanks IPs too. It sucks to treat them like
second class citizens.

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 6:32 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <
amir.aharoni@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Something like the "new message" orange bar :)
>
> I guess that designers and Growth people may know an answer, but all
> thoughts are welcome.
>

With my "product manager for Growth" hat on... Like Kaldari said we can't
give people who aren't logged in Echo notifications at the moment. The only
alternative is to post to the IP talk page. This would require us to
basically build a user account, i.e. a bot, in to Thanks to deliver a Talk
page message for the IP. That's probably not going to happen, to be honest,
and there isn't the manpower behind Echo right now to design/build proper
anonymous notifications. If you're gung-ho about this idea I think Nemo is
right, just use the Talk page. :)

My instinct here is to try and use this as an experimental tool for showing
IPs the advantages of logging in. That is, show them an "unclaimed" account
with thank you or other notification, then prompt them to sign up after
they read it. This would give us temporary anonymous notifications and also
show people what they would get for taking a moment to sign up. This kind
of technique is extremely powerful for demonstrating the value in
registering for a site, and you can similar examples in many other places,
such as Twitter's "log in and tweet" flow that happens if you use one of
their share buttons on a news article etc.

If you look at our draft (emphasis on the draft) documentation at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Anonymous_editor_acquisition you will see us
mentioning ideas like the "proto-account" that Tim brought up as well.
(Just to poke at the technical issue Marc brought up... is there any reason
we wouldn't use Redis for this? It seems well suited to storing high
volumes of data we would intend to be temporary.)
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