Mailing List Archive

[Wikimedia-l] NSA
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
> See attachment.
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

"the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store
"interesting" content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which
can store material for up to five years. "

Fred


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
How is this related to the foundation?


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net> wrote:

> See attachment.
>
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
>
> Fred
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:

> How is this related to the foundation?
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> wrote:
>
> > See attachment.
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> >
> > Fred
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
>
> Risker
>
>
> On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How is this related to the foundation?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > See attachment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > >
> > > Fred
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Met vriendelijke groet,
> >
> > Huib Laurens
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>



--
Met vriendelijke groet,

Huib Laurens
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
It's from a slide they have a bit down the page with our logal about why
they are interested in http. You can search for "nearly everything a
typical user does on the internet"

You can also see the slide on Jimmy's tweet about said issue:
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/362626509648834560

There is an ongoing thread on wikitech about https again stemming from this.

James

James Alexander
Legal and Community Advocacy
Wikimedia Foundation
(415) 839-6885 x6716 @jamesofur


On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> > On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > How is this related to the foundation?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > See attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > >
> > > Huib Laurens
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg

(Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

Risker


On 31 July 2013 15:44, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
> >
> > Risker
> >
> >
> > On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > How is this related to the foundation?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > See attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Met vriendelijke groet,
> > >
> > > Huib Laurens
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
Look at the attached image.

Fred

> Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites.
>>
>> Risker
>>
>>
>> On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens <sterkebak@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > How is this related to the foundation?
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > See attachment.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data
>> > >
>> > > Fred
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Met vriendelijke groet,
>> >
>> > Huib Laurens
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet,
>
> Huib Laurens
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>



_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
>
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
>
> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)
>
> Risker
>
>
Aye, it's a short bit down the page but included around screenshots and
explanations of the tools they use to analyze traffic by keyword (and so
what led to Jimmy's understandable reaction imo)

James
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)


Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these people."


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
>> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
>> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
>> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)

> Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these people."


How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker <risker.wp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article:
> >>
> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg
> >> (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under
> >> discussion on the Wikitech-L list.)
>
> > Yes, that's the image that made me say out loud "Fuck. Fuck these
> people."
>
>
> How DARE they use us as their example. HOW DARE THEY.
>
>
Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
looking up is powerful knowledge.

- Ryan
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane <rlane@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
> looking up is powerful knowledge.


That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Ryan Lane <rlane@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>
> >
> Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are
> looking up is powerful knowledge.
>
> - Ryan


Indeed. It's much more safe and sensible to just go down to your library
and check out a book.

Oh, wait.

--
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
>
> What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.


It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.

~Matt Walker
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker <mwalker@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>> What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information.
>
>
> It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third
> party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no
> point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate to
> call it proof, we can start making tremendous amounts of noise.
>
> ~Matt Walker

I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have
gone further than they have. It seems that most of the data they
collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be
analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules after the
approval of a senior executive in the administration, that the rules
are drawn from generally accepted 4th amendment jurisprudence, etc.

The cynic in me is also convinced that virtually all Western countries
do the same sort of thing, if probably on a smaller scale. I would bet
all the money I have that at a minimum the French, the English and the
Germans maintain roughly similar intelligence gathering programs. But
of course, they will deny it until it becomes impossible to deny it.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On 31 July 2013 23:01, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it
> became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have
> honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted
> over almost any electronic medium was collected and analyzed in some
> way. That appears to be the case, and in fact, I expected them to have


Well done! You're very clever.


- d.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
Thanks David. Always appreciate your wit.

That said, I wasn't claiming that anticipating being monitored was
exceptional. Quite the opposite; I said I was surprised there was
anyone who didn't already assume everything was trapped and traced.
Your reaction of "Fuck. Fuck these people." suggests you were
surprised they might be keeping tabs on Wikipedia. Although I wouldn't
take the use of the Wikipedia logo as complete confirmation (it could
just be an illustration, for the audience, of how much people use http
traffic), its hard to imagine most people would be shocked to learn
Wikipedia traffic isn't exempt from a dragnet that catches literally
everything else.

~Nathan

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.

Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:
> And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
> represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
> of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
> raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
> without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
> the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.
>
> Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
> Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
> hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
> blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.
Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
"most" to "all" in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind
of rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's
how they get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.

--Michael Snow

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@frontier.com> wrote:
> On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:
>>
>> And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
>> represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
>> of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
>> raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
>> without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
>> the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.
>>
>> Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
>> Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
>> hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
>> blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.
>
> Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
> "most" to "all" in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
> similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
> rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they
> get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.
>
> --Michael Snow
>
>

It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Given the differences between mail.ru
and Wikipedia, I should think it would be clear why one might be
subject to a direct demand for transferring data while the other is
not. If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that
Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
intelligence agencies.

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@frontier.com>wrote:

>
>> Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
>> Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
>> hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
>> blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.
>>
> Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
> "most" to "all" in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
> similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
> rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how they
> get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.


Thanks for the voice of reason, Michael.

As a quick reminder here, before any conspiracy theories about orders and
data retention get out of control:

1) We've flat-out denied any sort of involvement in this, and we continue
to stand by that denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/06/14/prism-surveillance-wikimedia/

2) Take with a grain of salt, of course, but our understanding (based on
the few gag orders that have been made public) is that we could be forced
to not confirm having received a National Security Letter, but we can't
actually be forced to lie about it. In other words, if we'd received one we
would not be allowed to say "we've received one", but we also could not be
forced to deny it - we'd always have the option to remain silent instead.

3) We understand that the rules cause some people not to trust our denial,
and can't entirely blame them! That is why we've asked the government to
change the rules, so that you can have more trust in us next time we issue
the same denial:
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/07/18/wikimedia-foundation-letter-transparency-nsa-prism/

This is not to say that the http/https issue isn't important; like
Engineering, we think progress on that issue is important. But it is
important to keep "we don't yet deploy https as widely as we'd like"
separate from "there are secret orders to transfer all our logs to the NSA."

Thanks-
Luis

--
Luis Villa
Deputy General Counsel
Wikimedia Foundation
415.839.6885 ext. 6810

NOTICE: *This message may be confidential or legally privileged. If you
have received it by accident, please delete it and let us know about the
mistake. As an attorney for the Wikimedia Foundation, for legal/ethical
reasons I cannot give legal advice to, or serve as a lawyer for, community
members, volunteers, or staff members in their personal capacity.*
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
I think it's more reasonable to assume that
> Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
> Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
> of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
> able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
> held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
> uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
> intelligence agencies.

The capacity of the Wikimedia Foundation to keep a secret of this nature
is law. Simply too many outlaws; something NSA could probably figure out;
they are not called intelligence for nothing.

Fred


_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@frontier.com>
> wrote:
> > On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote:
> >>
> >> And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies
> >> represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most
> >> of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of
> >> raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so
> >> without permission none of them are permitted to describe or disclose
> >> the nature or extent of the data demands the U.S. government has made.
> >>
> >> Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that
> >> Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short
> >> hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a
> >> blanket order transferring its server logs to the NSA.
> >
> > Facebook, Google, Yahoo, and Twitter, yes. But mail.ru? The shift from
> > "most" to "all" in the first paragraph may make it easy to assume the
> > similarity is universal, but it's ignoring the full context. That kind of
> > rhetorical shift is a favorite trick of conspiracy theorists, it's how
> they
> > get you to make those short hops to unwarranted conclusions.
> >
> > --Michael Snow
> >
> >
>
> It's hardly a conspiracy theory. Given the differences between mail.ru
> and Wikipedia, I should think it would be clear why one might be
> subject to a direct demand for transferring data while the other is
> not. If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that
> Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter,
> Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind
> of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be
> able to do anything other than deny it, but we can easily see why data
> held by Wikipedia (including partially anonymized e-mails, file
> uploads, talk page communication, etc.) would be of interest to
> intelligence agencies.
>
>
I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was
the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation.

- Ryan
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

1 2  View All