Mailing List Archive

Ban and moderate
Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of
this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and
AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated,
this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject:

1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list
administrators;

2) Greg Kohs is still banned and Peter Damian moderated;

3) Five members posted supporting the list administrators decision;

4) Nine members posted against or questioning the list administrators decision;

5) Greg Kohs has been accused of and/or called (after being banned =
unable to self defense)

5.1) brinkmanship, boasting, troll, by Gerard Meijssen
5.2) actively opposing [the project], criticizing in public forums in
exaggerated ways, not adding anything constructive or helpeful,
trollish and disruptive behavior, bad faith, malice, engaged in a
campaign intending to harm, have and use substantive issues [to
harm], by Fred Bauder
5.3) completely unable to keep his contributions civil, causing more
flamewars than constructive discussion, by Austin Hair, list
administrators reasons to ban
5.4) having a long, unmitigated and unambiguous record of trolling,
spamming, harassment, and abuse, openly soliciting bids from "web
manipulators" whom he intends to pay to post pre-written negative
comments to news stories about Wikipedia, with a very clearly stated
motive to drive traffic to his revenue-generating sites, clearly
unethical and profit-driven behavior and trolling, wasting much time
and energy, throwing much shit [of and at others], returning here
frequently with throwaway email accounts, by Erik Moeller, Deputy
Director, Wikimedia Foundation
5.5) being abusive, somewhat sensationalistic, unwilling to abide by
reasonable internal behavior standards, that behavior being a
defining factor of his interaction with the list, rarely being able
to suppress it for long, by George Herbert
5.6) and associated with troublesome, trolls, and harassment, by phoebe ayers

6) Peter Damian has been accused of and/or called (after being
moderated = self defense not guaranteed)

6.1) making you believe there is nothing good to be found in
Wikipedia, posturing as a superior mind, boring, not toning down his
retoric, not relevant, by Gerard Meijssen
6.2) actively opposing [the project], criticizing in public forums in
exaggerated ways, not always contributing something constructive and
helpeful, trollish and disruptive behavior, bad faith, malice,
engaged in a campaign intending to harm, have and use substantive
issues [to harm], by Fred Bauder
6.3) not always posting something that is even marginally acceptable,
by Austin Hair, list administrators reasons to moderate
6.4) and associated with troublesome, and trolls, by phoebe ayers

Sixteen hours after the ban and moderation, the 19th post was
off-topic. Three and a half hours later, by the 25th post the
discussion got off-topic for good staying that way, until someone
change the topic title. Of 41 posts, 18 (including the last 17) were off-topic.

Half an hour after the 19th post that would eventually send the
discussion off-topic for good, another topic was open. It added a
total of 19 posts, six of them by the list member that started it. It
generated one post questioning the list administrators decision to
moderate Peter Damian, and three supporting the list administrators
decision to ban Greg Kohs. Furthermore,

7) Greg Kohs (after being banned = unable to self defense) was
accused of campaigning against Wikipedia, having a big anti campaign
in progress, being disingenuous and having bad faith, by Fred Bauder

8) Greg Kohs and his publications off-list were accused of
being/having (after Greg Kohs being banned = unable to self defense)

8.1) sheer number of inaccuracies and misportrayals, by Michael Peel
8.2) full of misinformation, erroneously blaming the WMF for content
issues, simultaneously arguing two sides of an issue, flat out false
or outdated, troll, by Ryan Kaldari
8.3) continual attacks on the content don't appear to consistent and
give the appearance (to me based on my view) of attacking the WMF
because he has a personal axe to grind, Posting long screeds
attacking the content providing nature while ignoring the fact that
WMF is legally a host, not using a productive method for encouraging
positive change, Continually railing on and on about these cases of
pornography, plagiarism and libel just are ignoring, He doesn't feel
like he's addressing systematic problems with the user created
culture but attacking to attack, faulting the community (which it
feels like) for not dealing with these problems on specific pages,
attacking your average contributor, It feels like he's not attacking
.the WMF but the base of people like you and me, can't try to make
positive change, won't fork, gives the appearance of trying to take
down a project, by Laura Hale

9) Peter Damian (after being moderated = self defense not guaranteed)
was accused of bad talk, by Fred Bauder

10) Peter Damian and his publications off-list were accused of
being/having (after Peter Damian being moderated = self defense not
guaranteed)

10.1) exaggerating, going beyhond negative comments, by Fred Bauder
10.2) blog complaining about moderation being itself moderated by
him, by Ryan Kaldari

There seems to be nothing unusual or particularly remarkable in this
case when compared with what can be seen on this list or in many
Wikimedia projects. Hopefully this may be useful to others, helping
them understand what to expect and how things work and are done and
dealt with here.

Sincerely,

Virgilio A. P. Machado
(Vapmachado)



_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam@fct.unl.pt> wrote:
> Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of
> this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and
> AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated,
> this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject:
>
> 1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list
> administrators;
> ...snip....
> Virgilio A. P. Machado
> (Vapmachado)

I don't remember seeing any comments or discussion on that matter,
care to point them out?
-Peachey

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Virgilio A. P. Machado <vam@fct.unl.pt> wrote:
> Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of
> this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and
> AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated,
> this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject:

Wow! I see a fantastic candidate to revive the List Summary Service
here :) Applied to every topic, this would be a very useful service.

-- phoebe

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:58 PM, K. Peachey <p858snake@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> I don't remember seeing any comments or discussion on that matter,
> care to point them out?

They are mostly in the thread 'Greg Kohs and Peter Damian'

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061638.html

--
John Vandenberg

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:23:16 +0100, "Virgilio A. P. Machado"
<vam@fct.unl.pt> wrote:
> Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of
> this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and
> AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated,
> this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject:
>
> 1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list
> administrators;
>
subscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:

> If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.


+1

Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
might make it even slightly useful again.


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
> chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
> might make it even slightly useful again.

Who want's a list that's slightly useful?

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously...
Thanks,
GerardM

On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
> > chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
> > might make it even slightly useful again.
>
> Who want's a list that's slightly useful?
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
on 10/22/10 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

> Hoi,
> People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously...
> Thanks,
> GerardM

To what "use" are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l?

Marc Riddell


> On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
>>> chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
>>> might make it even slightly useful again.
>>
>> Who want's a list that's slightly useful?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On 22 October 2010 14:14, Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86@comcast.net> wrote:
> on 10/22/10 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijssen@gmail.com wrote:

>> People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously...

> To what "use" are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l?


Your answer appears to have fallen prey to the fallacy of the excluded middle.

The problem is how to arrest the evaporative cooling effect:

http://blog.bumblebeelabs.com/social-software-sundays-2-the-evaporative-cooling-effect/


- d.

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
> To what "use" are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l?
>
> Marc Riddell

This is a public list for discussion of matters which concern and affect
the Wikimedia Foundation. It is open to supporters and critics of our
projects; to novices and old hands.

Fred


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On 22/10/2010 08:54, David Gerard wrote:
> On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter<putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:
>
>> If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.
>
>
> +1
>


Are you both asking to be put on moderation or to be banned>


> Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
> chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
> might make it even slightly useful again.
>

Has troll become the new Nazi?

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
> on 10/22/10 10:11 AM, Fred Bauder at fredbaud@fairpoint.net wrote:

> This is a public list for discussion of matters which concern and affect
> the Wikimedia Foundation. It is open to supporters and critics of our
> projects; to novices and old hands.
>
I am listening, and do hear what you are saying, Fred. But banishment from
something, whether it be from a working project or a country, means that
person is being openly, or even surreptitiously, destructive of the body,
the substance, of the project or country, not merely being critical of it.
Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the
substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia? And could we please
stop the disingenuousness of calling what is clearly censorship,
"moderation"?

And, when someone's constant (and seemingly only) answer to anyone who
doesn't agree with them is to call them a name - like "troll", the
accusation should bounce right back to the accuser. In psychology it's
called "projection".

Marc


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Marc Riddell
<michaeldavid86@comcast.net> wrote:
> I am listening, and do hear what you are saying, Fred. But banishment from
> something, whether it be from a working project or a country, means that
> person is being openly, or even surreptitiously, destructive of the body,
> the substance, of the project or country, not merely being critical of it.
> Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the
> substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia?

That is, in fact, exactly what we, the list administrators, finally concluded.

A minor correction, however: it was his contribution to the mailing
list we were assessing, not to Wikipedia or any other project.
(Though, given that he's been banned from at least two of them, that
would have been a much easier case to make.)

Greg Kohs went beyond being merely critical (which is welcome, and
even encouraged) to the point of being antisocial and
counterproductive. He did so to such an extent that it was actively
preventing civil discourse.

> And could we please
> stop the disingenuousness of calling what is clearly censorship,
> "moderation"?

Moderation is the technical term for it, and and you can call it
"censorship" if you like, but your term carries an obvious bias.

I've been taking time out of my day to regularly log into the list
administration interface to make sure nobody's posts were
unnecessarily delayed, and I personally haven't rejected a single one
from Peter Damian so far. I expect that we'll probably take him off
moderation soon, if only to relieve the burden on the administrators.

> And, when someone's constant (and seemingly only) answer to anyone who
> doesn't agree with them is to call them a name - like "troll", the
> accusation should bounce right back to the accuser. In psychology it's
> called "projection".

The funny thing about projection, of course, is that it's so easy to
call it out as recursive.

Austin

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:
>
> > If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.
>
>
> +1
>
> Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
> chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
> might make it even slightly useful again.
>
>
>
+1 from me too.

I would also like to add that labeling someone a troll doesn't necessarily
mean that he doesn't provide good criticism, it's just that he presents it
in the most time consuming and destructive way possible. I am personally
interested in some of the criticism Kohs put forward, but I am against his
tactics.

We had a troll on ar.wp who was pretty similar in tactics, it took months of
debate about freedom and censorship etc. and a few good editors actually
quitting before we banned him. And it took a few more months of
sock-puppeting for him to actually give up, and looking back at this
humongous waste of the time for all parties involved, I wonder if the couple
of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are
capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about
'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are
trying to constructively work together.

--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
I support the list admins in making this assessment. I dont think it is very
productive to then discuss every assessment on this list. So if we agree
that moderation might be necessary under certain circumstances, if we agree
what circumstances those are and who should be the list admins (or at least
there are no major objections of >33% of the members of this list), then I
suggest we leave it with that.

These circumstances have been discussed several times on this list, but if
you need to discuss something, please stick to those abstract circumstances,
and dont go into specific cases. I think that might actually carry some
value for the future.

Best,

Lodewijk

2010/10/22 Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:
> >
> > > If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.
> >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
> > chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
> > might make it even slightly useful again.
> >
> >
> >
> +1 from me too.
>
> I would also like to add that labeling someone a troll doesn't necessarily
> mean that he doesn't provide good criticism, it's just that he presents it
> in the most time consuming and destructive way possible. I am personally
> interested in some of the criticism Kohs put forward, but I am against his
> tactics.
>
> We had a troll on ar.wp who was pretty similar in tactics, it took months
> of
> debate about freedom and censorship etc. and a few good editors actually
> quitting before we banned him. And it took a few more months of
> sock-puppeting for him to actually give up, and looking back at this
> humongous waste of the time for all parties involved, I wonder if the
> couple
> of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are
> capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about
> 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are
> trying to constructively work together.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Muhammad Yahia
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:
>
> If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation.

+1.

Although I am not privy to all of Mr. Koh's engagements with the
community, he has certainly made himself notorious for polemical
disruption over various Wikimedia projects and forums. Allegations of
censorship are misplaced. He will, without a doubt, continue to blog
about Wikimedia and interested members can relay anything worthy of
being read without the kerfuffle.

Anirudh Bhati

00 91 9328712208
Skype: anirudhsbh

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
Austin Hair, you have very recently publicly stated: "Greg Kohs went beyond
being merely critical (which is welcome, and even encouraged) to the point
of being antisocial and counterproductive."

This is in follow-up to calling him "completely unable" to keep
contributions "civil".

In the past, David Gerard has insinuated that he is a "dick" on the list you
moderate. Phoebe Ayers has hinted that "harassment" may be a problem of
his. Neither member of the list has been publicly rebuked by any on your
moderating team, though their insinuations are offensive to us.

However, you were asked privately, and Samuel Klein as well, to please point
out what has been uncivil (and now "antisocial") about any of the last five
of Kohs' posts to the Foundation-l mailing list. You have failed to respond
to that question. Samuel has failed to respond to that question.

So, I ask here, what has been uncivil or antisocial about any of the most
recent five of Kohs' posts to Foundation-l?

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061602.html

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061461.html

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061456.html

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060702.html

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060441.html


This should take no more than 3 or 4 minutes of your time. You refuse to
take that time, yet you find the time to label Kohs "antisocial" (which is
really quite comical, considering his expansive list of friends on
Facebook).

How many hours have already been wasted on Foundation-l, thanks to your
recent judgment? How many more hours will be wasted as we move forward with
the next steps? (You don't really think this is "over", do you? Kohs will
likely return with sockpuppets on the mailing list. He is relentless when
prodded.) Or, you could just admit that you've made a mistake, apologize,
and then we all move on. He's already gotten bored with Wikisource,
Wikibooks, and Wikiversity, where he's been unblocked -- and yet given
excellent free content before he faded off.

H.N.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Marc Riddell
<michaeldavid86@comcast.net> wrote:
> Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the
> substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia?

Yes, in my opinion.

Both were banned from English language Wikipedia and (I believe) other
projects, for content and behavioral reasons.


--
-george william herbert
george.herbert@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Herbert" <george.herbert@gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate


> Both were banned from English language Wikipedia and (I believe) other
> projects, for content and behavioral reasons.

What content reasons was I banned for? 'Behavioural reasons' - I admit
have a short temper. Apologies. I have tried to keep my temper here. You
are free to look at my posts. In any case, I am closing this account now. I
am sorry this has caused so much disturbance.

With every kind wish,

Peter Damian


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
I would think the people who think this list is useless have already
unsubscribed.

Can't please everyone.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously...
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as "troll-l" and lots of
>> > chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire
>> > might make it even slightly useful again.
>>
>> Who want's a list that's slightly useful?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On 10/22/2010 09:27 AM, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> I wonder if the couple
> of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are
> capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about
> 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are
> trying to constructively work together.

Muhammad,

I found this part of your email especially compelling. There is no lack
of people on our public email lists with a variety of opinions, and have
no hesitation in sharing them, who don't otherwise engage in abusive or
disruptive behavior.

Cary

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> I would think the people who think this list is useless have already
> unsubscribed.
>

I'm still here. I stay subscribed for the lulz.

-Chad

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: Ban and moderate [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Cary Bass <cary@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> On 10/22/2010 09:27 AM, Muhammad Yahia wrote:
> > I wonder if the couple
> > of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are
> > capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about
> > 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we
> are
> > trying to constructively work together.
>
> Muhammad,
>
> I found this part of your email especially compelling. There is no lack
> of people on our public email lists with a variety of opinions, and have
> no hesitation in sharing them, who don't otherwise engage in abusive or
> disruptive behavior.
>
> Cary
>
>
I didn't mean to imply otherwise Cary, I was just alluding to the fact that
those people exist, on wiki or on mailing list, as opposed to what he is
doing.

--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l