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Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)


I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
Thank you in advance.

Aubrey
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com> wrote:
> DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>
>
> I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> Thank you in advance.

I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
issue certainly isn't being ignored.

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> From: thomas.dalton@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com> wrote:
> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >
> >
> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> > here:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> > Thank you in advance.
>
> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.
>

That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team
will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
just in case you aren't 100% correct.

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
of an Arab or Muslim nation.

I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
ethical levels.
Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
it Haifa or not.

M



On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> step into Israeli soil.
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
>> From: thomas.dalton@gmail.com
>> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>>
>> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
>> > So
>> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
>> > (I
>> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
>> > found is
>> > here:
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
>> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
>> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
>> > 2011.
>> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
>> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
>> > a
>> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
>> > )
>> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
>> > there
>> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
>> > Thank you in advance.
>>
>> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
>> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
>> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
>> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
>> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
>> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).










Image by FlamingText.com








> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
> From: moushirah@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.
> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
> it Haifa or not.
>
> M
>
>
>
> On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> > step into Israeli soil.
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> >> From: thomas.dalton@gmail.com
> >> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> >>
> >> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni <zanni.andrea84@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
> >> > So
> >> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
> >> > (I
> >> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
> >> > found is
> >> > here:
> >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> >> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> >> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
> >> > 2011.
> >> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> >> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
> >> > a
> >> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
> >> > )
> >> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
> >> > there
> >> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> >> > Thank you in advance.
> >>
> >> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> >> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> >> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> >> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> >> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> >> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Hi all,

Thanks for bringing this up - although I think this belongs on wikimania-l
and not necessarily here.

I believe we'll be posting a FAQ dedicated to these issues quite soon on our
website, http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org, as this matter has been brought
up a number of times already.

I'll try to sum it up quickly for now:

* We will be delighted to have as high a participation as possible from the
entire Middle East. This is really, really important to us, more than
everything else. You can visit our website and see that most of it has
already been translated into Arabic.

* Unfortunately, ME politics is often plagued by tactics such as banning and
boycotting. No matter how good our intentions, I'm sorry to say there will
be people there who will still abstain from coming to the conference for
their own reasons, and there's not too much we can do about it. If someone
doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret
at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come
here and change their minds about Israeli reality.

* Wikimedia is not about politics, Wikimedia Israel doesn't represent the
Israeli government (or any other political entity), and we're trying to
focus this on free knowledge and a way for people to meet and interact, not
on politics.

* Wikimania 2011 will be held in Haifa, a city which is home to both Jews
and Arabs. We'll be promoting it (also) using bilingual posters and
brochures, and will try to reach the very large population of Israeli-Arab
students in Haifa's academic institutions.

* Israeli Arabs can (of course!!) reach the conference like any other
Israeli - they just need to get to the venue, on foot, by car, by train or
by bus.

* Palestinians living in the West Bank enter Israel by the thousands every
day. Yes, they need a permit for that. Obtaining that permit is a routine
operation. Yes, some difficulties might come up there, we'll use our
contacts within Israeli authorities to try to facilitate this as much as
possible, including issuing letters of invitation and contacting the
authorities well in advance. In fact, Israel might be one of the easier
destination for Palestinians to reach.

* Palestinians living in Gaza will have a harder time entering Israel. We're
looking at various possibilities to make this possible, should there be any
real demand for this. One possibility is for them to enter Egypt via the
border crossing in Rafah (which Egypt usually closes) and to reach Israel
via Egypt.

* Having said that, we know of *no* Palestinian (or Israeli-Arab)
Wikimedians, despite repeated attempts over the years to locate some. If
someone knows any, please let us know!

* Citizens of other countries can fly into Israel or enter Israel through
the open border crossings with Jordan and Egypt. Israel of course recognizes
the passports of countries with which it has diplomatic relations, even only
partial relations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers and
others. Please refer to http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.

* For some countries which do not recognize Israel like Syria, Iraq, Iran
and Saudi Arabia, entry will be more difficult, but there have been sporadic
entries from these countries in the past, and should any participant from
these countries wish to attend Wikimania, we will do our utmost to assist.
We have a letter of support from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
and exceptions can always be made at border crossings if approved from
on-high.


I'd be happy to keep this discussion constructive and not let it deteriorate
into a flame war.
Of course if anyone has further questions, we'll be happy to answer them.


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team
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Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special
possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry
and exit, for any visitor that requests it (Westerners who work/travel
to countries like Iran will not want an Israeli stamp on their
passport).

As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies,
or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a
very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within
the organizing team's sphere of influence. The only thing we can do
about it is hand out "Don't photograph me" labels or anonymous name
tags to participants who want them, much like happened in WM2007 in
Taipei (for some visitors from the PR of China).


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
> From: moushirah at gmail.com
> To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.
> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
> it Haifa or not.
>
> M


--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Thanks Harel for your email..

On 8/11/10, Harel Cain <harel.cain@gmail.com> wrote:
> Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special
> possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry
> and exit, for any visitor that requests it
A confirmation for the possibility of getting the stamp on a separate
paper will be helpful for people who might have fear of losing their
jobs in UAE or other gulf countries or of being banned from religious
rituals in Saudi Arabia.

>
> As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies, or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within the organizing team's sphere of influence.

As I put it before it is a complex and complicated situation which I
believe is better discussed without any judgments on politics,
governments or social reactions.
For participants who might have any conservations on going to Israel,
attending Wikimania will have its own cons and pros which will remain
up to the personal evaluation of the attendant, after all.

Good luck with all..
M
>
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 team
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
>> From: moushirah at gmail.com
>> To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>>
>> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
>> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
>> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>>
>> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
>> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
>> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
>> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
>> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
>> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
>> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
>> ethical levels.
>> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
>> it Haifa or not.
>>
>> M
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
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>

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.

Hey, isn't this already progress when they acknowledge the soil to be
Israeli? :)

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).

At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.

Mathias

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
I think Moushira is right: as much as there are external threats (which are being curbed in one way or another), it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person wants to go.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:44 +0200
> From: mathias.schindler@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a result of prior travel to Israel).
>
> At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
> citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.
>
> Mathias
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.

Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
would need to check.

The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
about Irak for instance):
Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.

There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
Indonesia.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
I absolutely agree that this is a complicated matter and would differ from
country to country. the thing is the foundations goal of expanding in the
"global south" does place some priority on the middle east, it would be
rather unfortunate that most of the people might not be able to make it to
the conference. I also understand that the organizers are making a great
effort to be as inclusive as possible, but I think we have to realize its
going to be what its going to be. Many people might not be able to attend
this year. Its not only an issue for the resident but also for people who
travel or work in countries which might discriminate against
an Israeli stamp on their passport.

I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern
countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa
have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
two separate things?

Regards

Theo

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>wrote:

>
> > I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> > to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> > remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> > an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> > includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> > destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> > those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> > ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
> I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> mid-eastern
> countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
Visa
> have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> two separate things?
>

In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
(technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.

It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
passport or a return certificate.

To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Nathan wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step into Israeli soil.
>>
>
> That's a pretty broad generalization - hopefully the organizing team
> will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
> just in case you aren't 100% correct.
>

Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>
> _______________________________________________

This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On 8/11/10, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru> wrote:
>
>> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
>> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
>> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
>> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
>> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
>> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
>> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
>> ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
You are right about the need to check on the list update. For instance
as far as I know, Bahrain has no problem with Israeli stamped passport
or nationals. (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
without restrictions?).

thanks
M

>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy <moushirah@gmail.com> wrote:
> (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
> list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
> without restrictions?).

They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already:
<http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Passport_stamping>

--
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.


On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>wrote:

>
> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >
> > _______________________________________________
>
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> _______________________________________________
>
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>

OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel,
of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just
like those who turned up at Sun City.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid

One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Again the thing is the difference between the two according to the visa
stamping info on the website, most of these countries- actually a lot of
countries are going to need a visa to enter israel regardless of their
relations. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you
get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going
to be there.



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM, theo10011 <de10011@gmail.com> wrote:

> Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
> agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod@mccme.ru>wrote:
>
>>
>> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>> >
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>>
>> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
>> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
>> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Assess the following scenario:

If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)?

> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400
> From: putevod@mccme.ru
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
>
> > I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> > mid-eastern
> > countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> > also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
> Visa
> > have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> > two separate things?
> >
>
> In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
> passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
> (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
> having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
> which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
> it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.
>
> It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
> A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
> travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
> visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
> passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
> passport or a return certificate.
>
> To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
You are leading this into an ideological debate whoever you are, this is for
people interested in attending wikimania getting to attend wikimania-thats
it. whatever your beliefs are this is not the forum for it.

Troll elsewhere.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:57 PM, <wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
> >> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >>
> >
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> > This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> > air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> > to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
> >
>
> OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel,
> of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just
> like those who turned up at Sun City.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid
>
> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Partecipation in Wikimania 2011 [ In reply to ]
Not to mention that the visa itself has to be on the passport and remain
there, no matter where the stamp goes.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Abbas Mahmoud <abbasjnr@hotmail.com>wrote:

> Assess the following scenario:
>
> If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an
> Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy
> stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the
> airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country
> X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that
> officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport?
> Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't
> been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)?
>
> > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400
> > From: putevod@mccme.ru
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> >
> >
> > > I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> > > mid-eastern
> > > countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I
> would
> > > also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
> > Visa
> > > have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> > > two separate things?
> > >
> >
> > In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
> > passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
> > (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid
> them
> > having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
> > which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
> > it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.
> >
> > It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
> > A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following.
> To
> > travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
> > visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
> > passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
> > passport or a return certificate.
> >
> > To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> _______________________________________________
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