Mailing List Archive

Privacy policy, statistics and rankings
Hi all;

Some days ago I was contacted in my user talk in Spanish Wikipedia about a
request for deletion in German Wikipedia.[1] An user opened a request for
deletion[2] for an user edits ranking[3] which my bot updates regularly in
German Wikipedia (also in many more projects[4][5]). Finally, the German
version of this ranking it was deleted some days ago.

I don't speak German, but, using a translator, I can understand that the
reason for the deletion was that German Wikipedia has got a "local privacy
policy" whichs avoid generating statistics of users which are not listed in
an opt-in page.[6]

The number of edits is a public number. For example, you can know my number
of edits in German Wikipedia, looking at[7][8], and the "official" top users
in[9]. So, what is the problem? data privacy or that this list was saved in
German Wikipedia?

Also, reading the Privacy Policy[10] of the Wikimedia Foundation, you can
see:

User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users edited
and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.

The privacy policy is clear. Your number of edits is public. And it can be
published in aggregated forms by other uses. And if you edit Wikipedia, you
accept the Privacy Policy. Also, on the top of the Privacy Policy page you
can read:

The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia
Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded,
or ignored on local Wikimedia projects.

But now, German Wikipedia has an "official local privacy policy" which is
opposed to that.

Finally, I would like to know what is the position of the Wikimedia
Foundation on this. I think that it is an important question, for users, for
researchers and for curious people.

Thanks,
emijrp

[1]
http://es.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Usuario_Discusi%C3%B3n:Emijrp&diff=39192815&oldid=39180637
[2]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:L%C3%B6schkandidaten/24._Juli_2010#Benutzer:Emijrp.2FList_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits_.28gel.C3.B6scht.29
[3]
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Emijrp/List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits
[4]
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Emijrp/List_of_Wikimedians_by_number_of_edits
[5] Look at the interwikis:
http://af.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Emijrp/List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits
[6] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Beitragszahlen/Opt-In
[7]
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&list=users&ususers=Emijrp&usprop=editcount
[8] http://toolserver.org/~vvv/sulutil.php?user=Emijrp
[9] http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediaDE.htm#wikipedians
[10] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Privacy_policy
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:13 AM, emijrp <emijrp@gmail.com> wrote:

> Also, reading the Privacy Policy[10] of the Wikimedia Foundation, you can
> see:
>
> User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
> contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
> status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users edited
> and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
> contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.
>
> The privacy policy is clear. Your number of edits is public. And it can be
> published in aggregated forms by other uses. And if you edit Wikipedia, you
> accept the Privacy Policy. Also, on the top of the Privacy Policy page you
> can read:
>
> The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia
> Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented, eroded,
> or ignored on local Wikimedia projects.
>
> But now, German Wikipedia has an "official local privacy policy" which is
> opposed to that.

No. The privacy policy tells which information, and under which
circumstances *may* be divulged. It is not against the policy to
provide less information than that, only to provide more information.
At least, that is how I always read the privacy policy.

--
André Engels, andreengels@gmail.com

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
2010/8/3 Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>

> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:13 AM, emijrp <emijrp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, reading the Privacy Policy[10] of the Wikimedia Foundation, you can
> > see:
> >
> > User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
> > contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
> > status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users
> edited
> > and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
> > contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.
> >
> > The privacy policy is clear. Your number of edits is public. And it can
> be
> > published in aggregated forms by other uses. And if you edit Wikipedia,
> you
> > accept the Privacy Policy. Also, on the top of the Privacy Policy page
> you
> > can read:
> >
> > The content of this page is an official policy approved by the Wikimedia
> > Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented,
> eroded,
> > or ignored on local Wikimedia projects.
> >
> > But now, German Wikipedia has an "official local privacy policy" which is
> > opposed to that.
>
> No. The privacy policy tells which information, and under which
> circumstances *may* be divulged.


And it says that the number of edits is public.


> It is not against the policy to provide less information than that, only to
> provide more information.
>

But it is against the policy to write a new policy which converts the number
of edits in a private data, until the user gives permission to be used and
published in statistics.


> At least, that is how I always read the privacy policy.
>
> --
> André Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
>
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:56 AM, emijrp <emijrp@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2010/8/3 Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>
>
> > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:13 AM, emijrp <emijrp@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Also, reading the Privacy Policy[10] of the Wikimedia Foundation, you
> can
> > > see:
> > >
> > > User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
> > > contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
> > > status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users
> > edited
> > > and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
> > > contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.
> > >
> > > The privacy policy is clear. Your number of edits is public. And it can
> > be
> > > published in aggregated forms by other uses. And if you edit Wikipedia,
> > you
> > > accept the Privacy Policy. Also, on the top of the Privacy Policy page
> > you
> > > can read:
> > >
> > > The content of this page is an official policy approved by the
> Wikimedia
> > > Foundation Board of Trustees. This policy may not be circumvented,
> > eroded,
> > > or ignored on local Wikimedia projects.
> > >
> > > But now, German Wikipedia has an "official local privacy policy" which
> is
> > > opposed to that.
> >
> > No. The privacy policy tells which information, and under which
> > circumstances *may* be divulged.
>
>
> And it says that the number of edits is public.
>
>
> > It is not against the policy to provide less information than that, only
> to
> > provide more information.
> >
>
> But it is against the policy to write a new policy which converts the
> number
> of edits in a private data, until the user gives permission to be used and
> published in statistics.
>
>
> > At least, that is how I always read the privacy policy.
> >
> > --
> > André Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
> >
> >
>
>
While I disagree with the policy I'm not sure we can say that they aren't
allowed to make it. I think a more restrictive policy would be allowed just
not less restrictive.

That being said I'm not totally sure that basic info like edit counts should
be disallowed since most of them are given by the software itself (and still
is) not to mention the toolserver. Perhaps more complex things (which are
currently disallowed by the toolserver without opt-in for example). I know
for example that X!s tool is required to get opt in to show broken down
stats like per month/time of day/graphs.


James Alexander
james.alexander@rochester.edu
jamesofur@gmail.com
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Hi all,

to give a little insight here: about two years ago the German Wikipedia
community reached consensus that, for the page
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BZ (which is basically user
statistics and ranking), an opt-in is required. That means only those users
may be listed there who have added their name to
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Beitragszahlen/Opt-In.

The reasoning behind this approach is simple: just because a piece of
personal data is public, the aggregation of such data isn't automatically
also public. Why is that so? Because such aggregations can provide insights
into editing habits and other behavior of the person behind that user
account which touches on their privacy. A similar analogy is: just because
cookies exist and are public information from a website's perspective
doesn't make it acceptable to generate viewing profiles and analyzing
browsing patterns because that inforation touches the user's privacy.

Why did the German community decide this? Germans have traditionally (at
least since 1983) been particularly conscientious about personal privacy.
The constitutional court here even claimed a basic right to control how
one's personal data is used by others, regardless of whether that data is
made public or not at some point in time. Retrieving, storing, using,
aggregating, and publishing personal data is regulated by fairly strict laws
that typically require compelling reasons for such activities before they
are allowed - or the person's explicit permission.

Some of these principles have also been codified at the European Union level
under the subject of "data protection" so this isn't a strictly German
approach (anymore).

Hope that helps,

Sebastian
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Personally, I don't see any intrinsic problem with different wiki
communities having different policies about what kinds of auxiliary
content they will accept (as long as it doesn't interfere with the
basic mission of the project).

I will say though that trying to control the ways that already public
data might be aggregated is pretty unexpected from my American
viewpoint. It is also seems pretty clear that aggregation of edit
statistics is perfectly acceptable within the larger WMF Privacy
Policy. Hence, I think the German Wikipedia community would find it
nearly impossible to enforce their position on privacy with respect to
the actions of most external third parties. It even seems likely to
me that if the same information appeared on EN or Meta, that they
would have trouble finding a consensus for deletion within those
communities.

So, if the Germans wish to have a more restrictive privacy policy
governing their own content, then that seems fine, but I suspect they
would have a difficult uphill battle to extend that decision beyond
their own immediate sphere of influence.

-Robert Rohde

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Hi!

> The privacy policy is clear. Your number of edits is public. And it can be
> published in aggregated forms by other uses. And if you edit Wikipedia, you
> accept the Privacy Policy. Also, on the top of the Privacy Policy page you
> can read:

Foundation privacy policy is what kind of information foundation releases.
In this case foundation has already released the data, and publishing it may or may not be the scope of project, but it is not 'privacy policy' anymore, but inclusion policy.
The very same information can be hosted at many other places, including google spreadsheets or any random paste bin.

Domas
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, James Alexander wrote:
> That being said I'm not totally sure that basic info like edit counts should
> be disallowed since most of them are given by the software itself (and still
> is) not to mention the toolserver. Perhaps more complex things (which are
> currently disallowed by the toolserver without opt-in for example). I know
> for example that X!s tool is required to get opt in to show broken down
> stats like per month/time of day/graphs.

Keep in mind that the Toolserver is bound by German privacy laws, which
are very strong.

- -Mike
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkxX9oUACgkQst0AR/DaKHtwjgCeJVkzyfD1fJCCQ2F7h1j15P4O
SZEAn3bTAudmg60Xk4wMwo8PM2xck4Ti
=p4SZ
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Sebastian Moleski <info@sebmol.me> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> to give a little insight here: about two years ago the German Wikipedia
> community reached consensus that, for the page
>(...)
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>

If I understand correctly emijrp here's the issue.
1) There's a global policy on data
2) German wikipedia have a more strict interpretation
3) Emijrp claims his page on spanish wikipedia doesn't break the
global policy (or any eswiki policy)
4) And while it's not allowed on dewiki (by a local policy, therefore
getting deleted) local policies of a wikipedia are, by definition of
local, only applied on that wiki.

User is not complaining that page violates global policy, only local one.
And emijrp points that global policy considers editcount as public.

Now people say "yes, but dewiki has a more strict policy", but again
this is not abotu dewiki (correctly) being able to have stronger local
policies.

This is similar to the issue a few weeks ago where a wiki decided to
enact a policy banning some images. It's a local policy, being applied
on that wiki. But noone expects such a stronger image policy to be a
valid reason for deletion on other wikis.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Robert Rohde <rarohde@gmail.com> wrote:

> I will say though that trying to control the ways that already public
> data might be aggregated is pretty unexpected from my American
> viewpoint.   It is also seems pretty clear that aggregation of edit
> statistics is perfectly acceptable within the larger WMF Privacy
> Policy.  Hence, I think the German Wikipedia community would find it
> nearly impossible to enforce their position on privacy with respect to
> the actions of most external third parties.  It even seems likely to
> me that if the same information appeared on EN or Meta, that they
> would have trouble finding a consensus for deletion within those
> communities.
>
> So, if the Germans wish to have a more restrictive privacy policy
> governing their own content, then that seems fine, but I suspect they
> would have a difficult uphill battle to extend that decision beyond
> their own immediate sphere of influence.
>
> -Robert Rohde
>

That was basicaly my point I think you express it much more clearly.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 3 August 2010 09:04, James Alexander <jamesofur@gmail.com> wrote:
> While I disagree with the policy I'm not sure we can say that they aren't
> allowed to make it. I think a more restrictive policy would be allowed just
> not less restrictive.

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The German
Wikipedia is entitled to create whatever policies it likes as long as
they don't go against global policy (and being more restrictive isn't
against the global privacy policy) or against the fundamental
principles of the movement. I think this policy is ridiculous
(Sebastian's analogy to cookies is very unconvincing - the
contributions page is already public, the analogy could be used to
argue to the removal of all attribution, but if edits are going to be
attributed (and, of course, they are) then the information is going to
be public and making a rule that says only people with the time and
technical expertise to write their own contributions analysis script
are allowed access to contribution statistics doesn't make any sense
to me at all), but it's not up to me.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The German
> Wikipedia is entitled to create whatever policies it likes as long as
> they don't go against global policy (and being more restrictive isn't
> against the global privacy policy) or against the fundamental
> principles of the movement. I think this policy is ridiculous
> (Sebastian's analogy to cookies is very unconvincing - the
> contributions page is already public, the analogy could be used to
> argue to the removal of all attribution, but if edits are going to be
> attributed (and, of course, they are) then the information is going to
> be public and making a rule that says only people with the time and
> technical expertise to write their own contributions analysis script
> are allowed access to contribution statistics doesn't make any sense
> to me at all), but it's not up to me.
>

That's not quite what the rule tries to accomplish. Rather, the point is
this: personal data being public does not allow anyone to aggregate such
data in a way such that the result is still tied to individual people (also
called 'profiling'). Why is that so? Because according to this German point
of view, people have the right to control what their personal data is being
used for. Since, when setting up an account on MediaWiki, there's no
explicit statement saying that your editing data may be aggregated in such a
manner, MediaWiki users didn't give permission to such aggregation and
therefore such aggregation may not take place. Therefore, such aggregation
without opt-in can't be published on German Wikipedia or on the Toolserver
(which is run by Wikimedia Deutschland and therefore subject to German law).

I understand that this position may seem odd to a lot of people, especially
if they come from the US or UK. I'm just stating a perception that is very
common here.

By the way, neither the original poster nor the discussion on German
Wikipedia implied that this point of view has to be applied to other wikis
like Meta or Spanish Wikipedia.

Best regards,

Sebastian
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
An'n 03.08.2010 09:13, hett emijrp schreven:
> User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
> contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
> status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users edited
> and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
> contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.
Perhaps you could compare it to this situation:
It's not illegal to look at a house from a public place. It's not
illegal to use binoculars in a public place. It's not illegal to take
photos in a public place. It's not illegal to follow a person. It's not
illegal to look into someone's trash can. It's not illegal to enter
someone's childrens' school. But if you do this all day long to a single
person, you are a stalker and legal action may be taken against you.
Just because collecting public data is legal doesn't mean that
aggregating it is legal. And German law is less lax with privacy than
other laws.

Marcus Buck
User:Slomox

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
An'n 03.08.2010 18:58, hett Marcus Buck schreven:
> An'n 03.08.2010 09:13, hett emijrp schreven:
>> User contributions are also aggregated and publicly available. User
>> contributions are aggregated according to their registration and login
>> status. Data on user contributions, such as the times at which users edited
>> and the number of edits they have made, are publicly available via user
>> contributions lists, and in aggregated forms published by other users.
> Perhaps you could compare it to this situation:
> It's not illegal to look at a house from a public place. It's not
> illegal to use binoculars in a public place. It's not illegal to take
> photos in a public place. It's not illegal to follow a person. It's not
> illegal to look into someone's trash can. It's not illegal to enter
> someone's childrens' school. But if you do this all day long to a single
> person, you are a stalker and legal action may be taken against you.
> Just because collecting public data is legal doesn't mean that
> aggregating it is legal. And German law is less lax with privacy than
> other laws.

Just to be clear, with this comparison I am referring to the first
aggregation tool that created a analysis of edits over daytime and other
statistics. That was the reason for the policy in the first place. I
don't think that emijrp's tool violates German privacy law, but it
violates the policy.

Marcus Buck
User:Slomox

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Sebastian Moleski wrote:
>>
> That's not quite what the rule tries to accomplish. Rather, the point is
> this: personal data being public does not allow anyone to aggregate such
> data in a way such that the result is still tied to individual people (also
> called 'profiling'). Why is that so? Because according to this German point
> of view, people have the right to control what their personal data is being
> used for. Since, when setting up an account on MediaWiki, there's no
> explicit statement saying that your editing data may be aggregated in such a
> manner, MediaWiki users didn't give permission to such aggregation and
> therefore such aggregation may not take place. Therefore, such aggregation
> without opt-in can't be published on German Wikipedia or on the Toolserver
> (which is run by Wikimedia Deutschland and therefore subject to German law).
>
> I understand that this position may seem odd to a lot of people, especially
> if they come from the US or UK. I'm just stating a perception that is very
> common here.
>


That isn't odd to me. Where does anyone sign to give permission for
their editing history to be aggregated and scrapped? There is no such
permission granted, and as many are under 18 they do not have the legal
capacity to enter into such agreements anyway.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Robert Rohde wrote:
> Personally, I don't see any intrinsic problem with different wiki
> communities having different policies about what kinds of auxiliary
> content they will accept (as long as it doesn't interfere with the
> basic mission of the project).
>
> I will say though that trying to control the ways that already public
> data might be aggregated is pretty unexpected from my American
> viewpoint. It is also seems pretty clear that aggregation of edit
> statistics is perfectly acceptable within the larger WMF Privacy
> Policy. Hence, I think the German Wikipedia community would find it
> nearly impossible to enforce their position on privacy with respect to
> the actions of most external third parties. It even seems likely to
> me that if the same information appeared on EN or Meta, that they
> would have trouble finding a consensus for deletion within those
> communities.

Currently the data collection and processing doesn't follow its
recommended code of good practice of the UKs DPA and may even be in
breach of it:
http://www.ico.gov.uk/ebook/ebook.htm

One wonders what the response would be if a UK ISP published a list of
all its users site visits.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 3 August 2010 19:33, <wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Currently the data collection and processing doesn't follow its
> recommended code of good practice of the UKs DPA and may even be in
> breach of it:
> http://www.ico.gov.uk/ebook/ebook.htm

That's quite a long document. You could point out the specific bits
being violated?

> One wonders what the response would be if a UK ISP published a list of
> all its users site visits.

That's completely different. Everyone knows (or can be reasonably
expected to know, anyway) that when they edit a page their username or
IP address, the time and date and what they edited will be stored and
made publicly available. We're just talking about making that publicly
available information available in a different way. I'm pretty sure
the UK's privacy laws don't forbid that, although I don't doubt what
people have said about German law.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Thomas Dalton wrote:
> On 3 August 2010 19:33, <wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> Currently the data collection and processing doesn't follow its
>> recommended code of good practice of the UKs DPA and may even be in
>> breach of it:
>> http://www.ico.gov.uk/ebook/ebook.htm
>
> That's quite a long document. You could point out the specific bits
> being violated?


Probably most of it. P26 to start with. Page12 retention, p13 security
of data, p14-16. All of section 5, ...



>> One wonders what the response would be if a UK ISP published a list of
>> all its users site visits.
>
> That's completely different. Everyone knows (or can be reasonably
> expected to know, anyway) that when they edit a page their username or
> IP address, the time and date and what they edited will be stored and
> made publicly available. We're just talking about making that publicly
> available information available in a different way. I'm pretty sure
> the UK's privacy laws don't forbid that, although I don't doubt what
> people have said about German law.
>

The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with an
individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to make
public statements about a user.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
> The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with an
> individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to make
> public statements about a user.


we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with pseudonym.

otoh, whatever people talk here about aggregation seems to be uneducated blabber by people who don't know Special:Contributions exists (that also groups/aggregates data by user).

Domas
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Domas Mituzas wrote:
>> The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with
>> an individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to
>> make public statements about a user.
>
>
> we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with
> pseudonym.

And? People use the same pseudonym on more than one site just as they
use the same password on more than one site. Besides some people even
enter their real name.

> otoh, whatever people talk here about aggregation seems to be
> uneducated blabber by people who don't know Special:Contributions
> exists (that also groups/aggregates data by user).
>

That there are multiple publications of processed user data does not
excuse the aggregation is simply makes it all the worse.

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 3 August 2010 15:48, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with an
> > individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to make
> > public statements about a user.
>
>
> we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with pseudonym.
>
> otoh, whatever people talk here about aggregation seems to be uneducated
> blabber by people who don't know Special:Contributions exists (that also
> groups/aggregates data by user).
>
>

Precisely my thought. I cannot speak for other projects, but the account
creation page on English Wikipedia includes some privacy warnings and links
directly to the WMF privacy policy, as does every single page on the
project. By creating an account, one implicitly accepts the terms of the
privacy policy, including the potential for aggregation of edits.

Risker
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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 08/03/2010 10:04 PM, wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Domas Mituzas wrote:
>>> The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with
>>> an individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to
>>> make public statements about a user.
>>
>>
>> we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with
>> pseudonym.
>
> And? People use the same pseudonym on more than one site just as they
> use the same password on more than one site. Besides some people even
> enter their real name.

this is their problem not ours. How do you know this is their real name?
Anything that looks like a name can be as "nicky" as any random list of
letters

masti

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
Risker wrote:
> On 3 August 2010 15:48, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with an
>>> individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to make
>>> public statements about a user.
>>
>> we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with pseudonym.
>>
>> otoh, whatever people talk here about aggregation seems to be uneducated
>> blabber by people who don't know Special:Contributions exists (that also
>> groups/aggregates data by user).
>>
>>
>
> Precisely my thought. I cannot speak for other projects, but the account
> creation page on English Wikipedia includes some privacy warnings and links
> directly to the WMF privacy policy, as does every single page on the
> project. By creating an account, one implicitly accepts the terms of the
> privacy policy, including the potential for aggregation of edits.
>


People can edit for years without creating an account, and they may well
have a static IP address. Besides simply writing down that data is
aggregated does not make it right. If its violation of personal data
right for Germans why should it be any less of a violation for
Spaniards, French, Americans, British, or the Chinese? Don't the German
pages also have links to privacy statements?


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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 08/03/2010 10:38 PM, wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Risker wrote:
>> On 3 August 2010 15:48, Domas Mituzas<midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

> People can edit for years without creating an account, and they may well
> have a static IP address. Besides simply writing down that data is
> aggregated does not make it right. If its violation of personal data
> right for Germans why should it be any less of a violation for
> Spaniards, French, Americans, British, or the Chinese? Don't the German
> pages also have links to privacy statements?


because other countries laws do not mark IP as personal data? Same as
cars licence plates. Some people drive car with same licence plates for
years. And so what?

masti

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Re: Privacy policy, statistics and rankings [ In reply to ]
On 3 August 2010 16:38, <wiki-list@phizz.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Risker wrote:
> > On 3 August 2010 15:48, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> The issue is when someone aggregates the data and associates with an
> >>> individual, and then makes publishes it. Or uses that data to make
> >>> public statements about a user.
> >>
> >> we don't associate data with individual, we associate data with
> pseudonym.
> >>
> >> otoh, whatever people talk here about aggregation seems to be uneducated
> >> blabber by people who don't know Special:Contributions exists (that also
> >> groups/aggregates data by user).
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Precisely my thought. I cannot speak for other projects, but the account
> > creation page on English Wikipedia includes some privacy warnings and
> links
> > directly to the WMF privacy policy, as does every single page on the
> > project. By creating an account, one implicitly accepts the terms of the
> > privacy policy, including the potential for aggregation of edits.
> >
>
>
> People can edit for years without creating an account, and they may well
> have a static IP address. Besides simply writing down that data is
> aggregated does not make it right. If its violation of personal data
> right for Germans why should it be any less of a violation for
> Spaniards, French, Americans, British, or the Chinese? Don't the German
> pages also have links to privacy statements?
>
>
>

Perhaps the point here is that it is not illegal in the place where the
servers are housed, or where the WMF exists.

I do find it kind of curious to see such a hostile response to the
long-time, well-known privacy policy for a group of projects devoted to
education, research and openness of information, particularly one
where each editor is personally and directly responsible for each edit s/he
makes. Publishing one's words on WMF projects is a *public* act, something
that is made clear with every time someone opens an "edit" tab. (If it
isn't on the projects you work on, then it ought to be.)

Risker
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