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Boycott in ace@wiki
Hi all,

Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
their Main page.

--Manuelt15
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Hi!

> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia

Thats ACE!

Domas

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki
<manuelt15.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.

The template seems to be used by four of their editors - all four in
the top-ten: http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Emijrp/List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits

-Palnatoke

--
http://palnatoke.org * @palnatoke * +4522934588

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On 16 July 2010 13:17, Manuelt15 Wiki <manuelt15.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.


Is there some way this isn't a blatant repudiation of NPOV?


- d.

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
>David wrote: Is there some way this isn't a blatant repudiation of NPOV?

According to an administrator on his talkpage, the site bans anything
that violates Islamic law. I suspect the Acehnese Wikipedia isn't the
only project with this rule. It would be difficult to obey it without
violating NPOV at some point.

Nathan

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Manuelt15 Wiki, 16/07/2010 14:17:
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw> in
> their Main page.

«boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from competent ulama». That's ok,
we have also Cathopedia. So: bye, bye, bring your POV elsewhere.

Nemo

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Simples, then. If a project refuses to enforce NPOV and "bans" itself, we
remove it.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki@gmail.com>wrote:

> Manuelt15 Wiki, 16/07/2010 14:17:
> > Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> > have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> > their Main page.
>
> «boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from competent ulama». That's ok,
> we have also Cathopedia. So: bye, bye, bring your POV elsewhere.
>
> Nemo
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
are to do.

The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 16 July 2010 14:17, Manuelt15 Wiki <manuelt15.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> their Main page.
>
> --Manuelt15
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
>
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results.

+1

-Chad

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hoi,
>> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
>> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
>> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
>> are to do.
>>
>> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
>> results.
>
Yes! Talk WITH not TO. That's what collaboration is all about.

Marc Riddell


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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
I know that every project's allowed to create its own guidelines and
policies, but this seems to go against the freedom of information principle
that Wikipedia stands for. I could accept this "No images" rule if it were
present on a Wiki where the bulk of the editors are legally restricted from
making such edits (Though it wouldn't be illegal per se, as the servers
aren't located in the country in question), but i am a bit baffled that they
feel the need to complain about the English Wiki, rather then worrying about
their own Wiki instead. Equally i am non to fond of sysops who so blatantly
advance their own point of view, as this signals that the sysop cannot
handle conflicts in a neutral and impartial sense.

I agree that a dialog needs to be started with this Wiki, in order to
discuss this issue. It is probably best to do so quickly, before an ulama
indeed decides to declare this a fatw -. In that case we would be discussing
under a religious pretext, which is rarely the best way to fix issues such
as these.

~Excirial



On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki <manuelt15.wiki@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> in
> their Main page.
>
> --Manuelt15
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Agreed. I don't particularly agree with Gerard's point that " It is similar
as if I were to say to the English language community
that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies." - in that
situation, yes, I'd expect en-wiki to change. If en-wiki was to leave its
collective brain home one day and get rid of the BLP policy, would we shrug
our shoulders and go "well, yes, it's a board-sanctioned policy, but they
can make their own decisions"? NPOV isn't just a board-sanctioned policy -
it's one of the fundamental principles and pillars the wiki is built on.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Excirial <wp.excirial@gmail.com> wrote:

> I know that every project's allowed to create its own guidelines and
> policies, but this seems to go against the freedom of information principle
> that Wikipedia stands for. I could accept this "No images" rule if it were
> present on a Wiki where the bulk of the editors are legally restricted from
> making such edits (Though it wouldn't be illegal per se, as the servers
> aren't located in the country in question), but i am a bit baffled that
> they
> feel the need to complain about the English Wiki, rather then worrying
> about
> their own Wiki instead. Equally i am non to fond of sysops who so
> blatantly
> advance their own point of view, as this signals that the sysop cannot
> handle conflicts in a neutral and impartial sense.
>
> I agree that a dialog needs to be started with this Wiki, in order to
> discuss this issue. It is probably best to do so quickly, before an ulama
> indeed decides to declare this a fatw -. In that case we would be
> discussing
> under a religious pretext, which is rarely the best way to fix issues such
> as these.
>
> ~Excirial
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Manuelt15 Wiki <manuelt15.wiki@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Only wanted to notify you that the Acehnese Wikipedia <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ôn_Keuë<http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>
> > <http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94n_Keu%C3%AB>>
> > have plans about boycotting Wikipedia, as they say in this statement <
> > http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pola:Lhi_gamba_peukabeh_Nabi_Muhammad_saw>
> > in
> > their Main page.
> >
> > --Manuelt15
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
> Acehnese Wikipedia is ready to boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from
> competent ulama.


In addition to trying to have a dialog with them and explain NPOV and the
rest of the pillars, I think someone should explain that the money that made
it possible for them to post such a notice actually comes from Wikipedia and
its volunteers...

--
Best Regards,
Muhammad Yahia
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.


All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.

However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
problematic.

And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.

Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?


- d.

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Muhammad Yahia <shipmaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Acehnese Wikipedia is ready to boycott Wikipedia if there is fatwa from
>> competent ulama.
>
>
> In addition to trying to have a dialog with them and explain NPOV and the
> rest of the pillars, I think someone should explain that the money that made
> it possible for them to post such a notice actually comes from Wikipedia and
> its volunteers...

Wouldn't it be better to explain to them that they are part of
Wikipedia, so they cannot boycott Wikipedia without boycotting
themselves? Although of course if they stick to their point, they have
the right to fork.


--
André Engels, andreengels@gmail.com

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.

It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is to
be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed, fork
the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language. They
can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
from editing it.

As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal attack.
I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues. Such
a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we have
to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
Thanks,
GerardM

On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them
> about
> > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what
> they
> > are to do.
> > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> community
> > that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
>
>
> All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
>
> However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> problematic.
>
> And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
>
> Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
No, you seem to be misunderstanding. Let me make a clear that me questioning
you on your beliefs and opinions in a respectful and neutral manner is not
in any sense a personal attack. Also note that I specifically said I agree,
we need to have conversations. I am not using any NPOV violations for "knee
jerk reactions [and] refusing to converse about such issues". What I was
pointing out is that to undermine the "action should be undertaken"
argument, you used the example of en-wiki violating board-set policies,
implying that en-wiki would somehow be exempt from any attempt to force it
on the issue. That is categorically and obviously wrong.

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
> There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
> Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
> with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
> their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.
>
> It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is
> to
> be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
> have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed, fork
> the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language. They
> can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
> from editing it.
>
> As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
> beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal
> attack.
> I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
> policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
> reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues. Such
> a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we have
> to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them
> > about
> > > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what
> > they
> > > are to do.
> > > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> > > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> > community
> > > that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> > > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
> >
> >
> > All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
> >
> > However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> > noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> > problematic.
> >
> > And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> > ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
> >
> > Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
Hoi,
I reacted in my previous mail to David Gerard.

To me it is not obvious nor categorical that board-set policies will
necessarily be welcomed or accepted. I assume that new policies will be
formulated that will not have the power of tradition behind them. Given that
our community is rather traditionalist nowadays I expect an outcry whatever
such a policy consists off.
Thanks,
GerardM


On 16 July 2010 17:24, Oliver Keyes <scire.facias@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, you seem to be misunderstanding. Let me make a clear that me
> questioning
> you on your beliefs and opinions in a respectful and neutral manner is not
> in any sense a personal attack. Also note that I specifically said I agree,
> we need to have conversations. I am not using any NPOV violations for "knee
> jerk reactions [and] refusing to converse about such issues". What I was
> pointing out is that to undermine the "action should be undertaken"
> argument, you used the example of en-wiki violating board-set policies,
> implying that en-wiki would somehow be exempt from any attempt to force it
> on the issue. That is categorically and obviously wrong.
>
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > First of all, the problem is with this template being on the main page.
> > There is room for people to be of the opinion that insults to Muslims or
> > Islam is not acceptable. I agree with them on this however I do not agree
> > with them what they protest against. If they make their opinions known on
> > their profile pages, I do not consider that there is a problem.
> >
> > It is also neither their call nor your call if the Acehenese Wikipedia is
> > to
> > be closed. When a majority of the ace community are of this opinion they
> > have the options to leave, not to show pictures that depict Mohammed,
> fork
> > the project and continue localise MediaWiki for the Acehnese language.
> They
> > can not force a closure of the ace.wikipedia nor can they prevent people
> > from editing it.
> >
> > As to querying my position with regards to the NPOV, that is first of all
> > beside the point and secondly it can easily be considered a personal
> > attack.
> > I care about the values of our community and I care about this particular
> > policy. Apparent violation of the NPOV is however no excuse for knee jerk
> > reactions. It is no excuse for refusing to converse about such issues.
> Such
> > a refusal is how you make enemies out of people who are the closest we
> have
> > to friends in societies that are foreign to us.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > On 16 July 2010 16:48, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 16 July 2010 14:44, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> > > > mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with
> them
> > > about
> > > > what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about
> what
> > > they
> > > > are to do.
> > > > The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to
> positive
> > > > results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> > > community
> > > > that they have to change their way because their community consensus
> is
> > > > incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
> > >
> > >
> > > All of this is quite true. Discuss, don't tell.
> > >
> > > However: so far it hasn't even gotten to "talking to". It's just been
> > > noting that this is a blatant violation of NPOV and is highly
> > > problematic.
> > >
> > > And ultimately, NPOV is non-negotiable if the current contributors to
> > > ace:wp want it to stay a Wikimedia project.
> > >
> > > Do you have a problem with even noting this? Do you dispute this?
> > >
> > >
> > > - d.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
> are to do.
>
> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.

I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.

We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
that are, at best, pretty darn rude. I really don't want to have to
moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
outright Muslim-bashing.

Austin

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
>
> We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> that are, at best, pretty darn rude.  I really don't want to have to
> moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> outright Muslim-bashing.
>
> Austin
>


Have a little faith. I don't think anything like outright
Muslim-bashing has ever happened on this list by regular participants.
Suggestions of closing the Aceh Wikipedia are obviously premature and
not helpful; discussing whether the rule violates NPOV, and alerting
others to facts about the situation, seems fine. It looks like the
administrators involved on ace.wp speak English and other languages,
anyone inclined to do so should feel welcome to approach them.

It's worth noting the template does not currently appear on the Main
Page, and there is something of a discussion about it here:
http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marit_Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Hercule#Wikipedia_and_Islam

Nathan

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
This template now also exists on the English Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:No_Prophet_Muhammad_Images

As an en.wiki admin, my first instinct would be to nominate it for
deletion, as this template is outside of scope, a violation of NPOV, and
potentially disruptive. Then the discussion concerning it could be had
at the TfD page. Would nominating it for deletion be a good idea or a
bad idea? Are there any alternatives that make sense in this situation?

Ryan Kaldari

On 7/16/10 8:41 AM, Austin Hair wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
>> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them about
>> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what they
>> are to do.
>>
>> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
>> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language community
>> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
>> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
>>
> I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
>
> We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> that are, at best, pretty darn rude. I really don't want to have to
> moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> outright Muslim-bashing.
>
> Austin
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
(not responding to anyone in particular)

I agree with most of what Gerard said: we should talk with them, and be
polite. What does it bring you to be right, but to scare away a community in
the process? Some people might find comfort in that, I don't.

Now lets try to follow this from their point of view. The English Wikipedia
adheres to US law, and probably some more. People editing any Wikipedia have
to adhere to the law they are in. Now apparently these people feel that they
should follow Islamitic law. So far, I guess everybody can agree that they
are OK to do so. The problem comes when they try to force that onto other
people. But... if the majority of a project is in a certain country - would
we disallow that project to align the rules to that countries law? And if
the majority feels it has to follow Islamitic law, would we say they can't
add in their local rules "pictures of Mohammed are not allowed"? To be
honest, if that would be what the community wants, and beliefs to be the
best, who are we to tell them they can't? I can imagine that if these people
have such big problems with it, also the intended audience might be insulted
with those images.

So, there is one other problem: the template. I have seen worse statements
on user pages, so I would not worry too much about the template itself, as
long as it is restricted to that. I dont see a problem with discussion.
However, using it on the main page does pose a problem. We should not be
bothering our readers with internal conflicts of whatever nature. So
hopefully we can talk to them about that specifically.

Is anyone in conversation with them now?

Lodewijk

2010/7/16 Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>

> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> > the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
> >
> > We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> > hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> > that are, at best, pretty darn rude. I really don't want to have to
> > moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> > outright Muslim-bashing.
> >
> > Austin
> >
>
>
> Have a little faith. I don't think anything like outright
> Muslim-bashing has ever happened on this list by regular participants.
> Suggestions of closing the Aceh Wikipedia are obviously premature and
> not helpful; discussing whether the rule violates NPOV, and alerting
> others to facts about the situation, seems fine. It looks like the
> administrators involved on ace.wp speak English and other languages,
> anyone inclined to do so should feel welcome to approach them.
>
> It's worth noting the template does not currently appear on the Main
> Page, and there is something of a discussion about it here:
>
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marit_Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Hercule#Wikipedia_and_Islam
>
> Nathan
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
*This template now also exists on the English Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:No_Prophet_Muhammad_Images

As an en.wiki admin, my first instinct would be to nominate it for
deletion, as this template is outside of scope, a violation of NPOV, and
potentially disruptive. Then the discussion concerning it could be had
at the TfD page. Would nominating it for deletion be a good idea or a
bad idea? Are there any alternatives that make sense in this situation?*

I would argue that in its current form the template is a violation of the
campaigning policy, as it is a clearly biased message being redirected at
other users, along with a call to boycot Wikipedia. I think that such a
template is not tolerable from any group regardless of faith, geographic
area and so on. If the template stated "This user believes that there should
be no images of Muhammad on Wikipedia" i would be fine with it, but in its
current form this is little more then a serious NPOV violation.

Besides, allowing this template would set a bad precedent. I don't think
that allowing users to create "<Objectionable X> is placed <ThereandHere>
All <Group> Wikipedians must boycot Wikipedia. This template will never be
removed" is a positive way to start communication between editors in a
diversified ethnological group such as Wikipedia. To be honest i can think
of a lot of ethnic groups that would use such templates to taunt each other.

As a final note i would point out that this template is only transcluded on
two pages, and that the creator is the same admin that made it on ACE.
Seeing this new template i am affraid that i now seriously question that
user's fitness for adminship. An admin should be impartial and unbiased,
with at least a basic acceptance of NPOV so that they can mediate between
users that believe different things. In this case the words "PoV pushing and
"Tedious editing" come to mind which is never a good thing, but if those
words arise when i think of an admin, i find it outright worrisome.

~Excirial

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 5:52 PM, Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari@wikimedia.org>wrote:

> This template now also exists on the English Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:No_Prophet_Muhammad_Images
>
> As an en.wiki admin, my first instinct would be to nominate it for
> deletion, as this template is outside of scope, a violation of NPOV, and
> potentially disruptive. Then the discussion concerning it could be had
> at the TfD page. Would nominating it for deletion be a good idea or a
> bad idea? Are there any alternatives that make sense in this situation?
>
> Ryan Kaldari
>
> On 7/16/10 8:41 AM, Austin Hair wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The Acehnese Wikipedia is a young project. They are entitled to their
> >> mistakes. It is for this reason important that we first talk with them
> about
> >> what it is that they do. We should not start talking TO them about what
> they
> >> are to do.
> >>
> >> The current talking TO them is not polite and will not lead to positive
> >> results. It is similar as if I were to say to the English language
> community
> >> that they have to change their way because their community consensus is
> >> incompatible with WMF official board sanctioned policies.
> >>
> > I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> > the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
> >
> > We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> > hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> > that are, at best, pretty darn rude. I really don't want to have to
> > moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> > outright Muslim-bashing.
> >
> > Austin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
*"if the majority feels it has to follow Islamitic law, would we say they
can't add in their local rules "pictures of Mohammed are not allowed"*

If a culture sees these images as highly offensive, and if the main
complement of editors / readers agrees with this i wouldn't object to such a
rule, as long as it remained in their local Wiki, with no attempts to force
it on other wikipedia's. Every culture has its own inherent bias towards
certain topics, and i don't believe that we should try to enforce a certain
"Morale" on other people - in other words, country specific Wikipedia's
should be granted some lenience in setting their own rules.

The limitation here should be that
A) Content may not be illegal in the USA due to hosting locations, and
B) Policies should not conflict with Wikipedia's goal, which is the creation
of a neutral, unbiased encyclopedia.

In other words, if the ACE community (Or any other community for that
matter) would suddenly start banning every user adding criticism on the
Islam (or any other topic), there would be a need for intervention. We
aren't trying to create another conservapedia after all.

~Excirial


On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lodewijk <lodewijk@effeietsanders.org>wrote:

> (not responding to anyone in particular)
>
> I agree with most of what Gerard said: we should talk with them, and be
> polite. What does it bring you to be right, but to scare away a community
> in
> the process? Some people might find comfort in that, I don't.
>
> Now lets try to follow this from their point of view. The English Wikipedia
> adheres to US law, and probably some more. People editing any Wikipedia
> have
> to adhere to the law they are in. Now apparently these people feel that
> they
> should follow Islamitic law. So far, I guess everybody can agree that they
> are OK to do so. The problem comes when they try to force that onto other
> people. But... if the majority of a project is in a certain country - would
> we disallow that project to align the rules to that countries law? And if
> the majority feels it has to follow Islamitic law, would we say they can't
> add in their local rules "pictures of Mohammed are not allowed"? To be
> honest, if that would be what the community wants, and beliefs to be the
> best, who are we to tell them they can't? I can imagine that if these
> people
> have such big problems with it, also the intended audience might be
> insulted
> with those images.
>
> So, there is one other problem: the template. I have seen worse statements
> on user pages, so I would not worry too much about the template itself, as
> long as it is restricted to that. I dont see a problem with discussion.
> However, using it on the main page does pose a problem. We should not be
> bothering our readers with internal conflicts of whatever nature. So
> hopefully we can talk to them about that specifically.
>
> Is anyone in conversation with them now?
>
> Lodewijk
>
> 2010/7/16 Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com>
>
> > On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I agree completely with Gerard, and also want to ask that we extend
> > > the same standard to this discussion on the mailing list.
> > >
> > > We can look at this issue and say "stupid fundamentalists," but that's
> > > hardly productive, and very quickly devolves into a thread with posts
> > > that are, at best, pretty darn rude. I really don't want to have to
> > > moderate five people this weekend when it finally gets to the point of
> > > outright Muslim-bashing.
> > >
> > > Austin
> > >
> >
> >
> > Have a little faith. I don't think anything like outright
> > Muslim-bashing has ever happened on this list by regular participants.
> > Suggestions of closing the Aceh Wikipedia are obviously premature and
> > not helpful; discussing whether the rule violates NPOV, and alerting
> > others to facts about the situation, seems fine. It looks like the
> > administrators involved on ace.wp speak English and other languages,
> > anyone inclined to do so should feel welcome to approach them.
> >
> > It's worth noting the template does not currently appear on the Main
> > Page, and there is something of a discussion about it here:
> >
> >
> http://ace.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marit_Ureu%C3%ABng_Nguy:Hercule#Wikipedia_and_Islam
> >
> > Nathan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: Boycott in ace@wiki [ In reply to ]
On 16 July 2010 17:58, Excirial <wp.excirial@gmail.com> wrote:

> If a culture sees these images as highly offensive, and if the main
> complement of editors / readers agrees with this i wouldn't object to such a
> rule, as long as it remained in their local Wiki, with no attempts to force
> it on other wikipedia's. Every culture has its own inherent bias towards
> certain topics, and i don't believe that we should try to enforce a certain
> "Morale" on other people - in other words, country specific Wikipedia's
> should be granted some lenience in setting their own rules.


No, that's completely incorrect. Wikipedias are per language, not per
country, and no country owns the wiki in its language. Neutral point
of view is not local point of view.


- d.

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