Mailing List Archive

Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
Sorry for top-posting.

Austin, think about who "everyone" is. The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers. The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)

Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below:

"Users don't explicitly complain about small things. They
especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the
negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort
required to find things. But if you take away a feature that's
important to a small number of users, or that's well established and
people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny
minority of users. Basing development decisions on who complains the
loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and
confusing features and lousy UI. Like most open-source software,
including MediaWiki. Good design requires systematic analysis,
ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not
representative."

Thanks,
Sue

-----Original Message-----
From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad
Idea, part 2

On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
> Austin Hair wrote:
>
>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and
>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected
>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a
>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid.
>
> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that
> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting
> anything of the sort).  Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that
> one has been made in this instance.  As for a practical fix, one
> actually was implemented (and quickly undone).

Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else
for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could
easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is
to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction.

Austin

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On 5 June 2010 19:03, <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:

> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)


The readers are not objecting on foundation-l. They are objecting on the blog.

I notice that Howie Fung avoided answering my question: What would it
take for this decision to be reversed?

Also, you may be able to answer the question of what would happen if a
wiki showed community conensus to remove this. Would the foundation
forcibly keep it in place?


- d.

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for top-posting.
>
> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs,


Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which
Jon and Eia began:
while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia,
it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have
no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English
speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet.

What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
opposition of your statement.

which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that
not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input,
but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has
made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this
particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)
>
> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below:
>
> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things.  They
> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the
> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort
> required to find things.  But if you take away a feature that's
> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and
> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny
> minority of users.  Basing development decisions on who complains the
> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and
> confusing features and lousy UI.  Like most open-source software,
> including MediaWiki.  Good design requires systematic analysis,
> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not
> representative."
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad
>        Idea, part 2
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Austin Hair wrote:
>>
>>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and
>>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected
>>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a
>>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid.
>>
>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that
>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting
>> anything of the sort).  Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that
>> one has been made in this instance.  As for a practical fix, one
>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone).
>
> Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else
> for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could
> easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is
> to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction.
>
> Austin
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Well, I would have liked to mean, English speaking people is only 2/60
global population, it would be obvious though, I'd like to give a stat
collection.

Cheers,

On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM,  <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry for top-posting.
>>
>> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs,
>
>
> Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which
> Jon and Eia began:
> while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia,
> it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have
> no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English
> speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet.
>
> What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
> Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
> other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
> opposition of your statement.
>
>  which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that
> not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input,
> but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has
> made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this
> particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)
>>
>> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below:
>>
>> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things.  They
>> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the
>> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort
>> required to find things.  But if you take away a feature that's
>> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and
>> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny
>> minority of users.  Basing development decisions on who complains the
>> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and
>> confusing features and lousy UI.  Like most open-source software,
>> including MediaWiki.  Good design requires systematic analysis,
>> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not
>> representative."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sue
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26
>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad
>>        Idea, part 2
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Austin Hair wrote:
>>>
>>>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and
>>>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected
>>>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a
>>>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid.
>>>
>>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that
>>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting
>>> anything of the sort).  Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that
>>> one has been made in this instance.  As for a practical fix, one
>>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone).
>>
>> Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else
>> for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could
>> easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is
>> to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction.
>>
>> Austin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko
> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
> Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
> other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
> opposition of your statement.


Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader groundswell in
favour of hiding the interwiki links by default.

Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there anyone
else? On foundation-l or the blog?

If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in favour, outside
the Foundation staff?

For a decision that directly contradicts the words of the mission
statement, by hampering the process of people finding knowlege in
their own language, this really does not appear good enough.

Where is the communtiy or reader groundswell *in favour* of this move?
It appears nonexistent.


- d.

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Sue Gardner wrote:

> The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.

Many novice users have expressed confusion, frustration and
disapproval. This isn't a representative sample either, but it's the
only reader feedback that we have (to weigh against the user
experience team's hunch).

> The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers'
> needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions
> that not everyone agrees with.

Agreed. But we've established that the usability study did not
include this issue. So while it's difficult to determine the extent
to which users have been adversely affected, there is no evidence that
*any* users were adversely affected by the previous setup or benefited
from the change.

This is not to say that no improvement is possible. We simply don't
know at this juncture. What's so unreasonable about the request to
restore the longstanding behavior (with the additional option to
collapse the links) until evidence of an actual problem (and net
benefit of the change) exists?

> People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from
> obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.".

Setting aside the issue of whether the change was beneficial (which
would require formal research to accurately assess), I strongly
believe that implementing it on the basis of speculation (with no
advance consultation with or notification to the community, despite
the existence of a beta test program) was a mistake.

I also find it extremely troubling that the team has interpreted
interwiki link usage data from the English Wikipedia as applicable to
all Wikimedia wikis (given the intention to deploy this setup across
the board). I would be shocked to learn that the interwiki links
don't receive substantially more use within other Wikipedias
(particularly the smaller ones, whose articles often contain less
information).

David Gerard wrote:

> I notice that Howie Fung avoided answering my question: What would it
> take for this decision to be reversed?
>
> Also, you may be able to answer the question of what would happen if a
> wiki showed community conensus to remove this. Would the foundation
> forcibly keep it in place?

I also wait the answers to these questions.

David Levy

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
I wrote:

> I also wait the answers to these questions.

wait = await

David Levy

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Wikipedia is a multilingual reference work. The visibility of the interwiki links made that plain. Please restore them.

A.

--- On Sat, 5/6/10, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Date: Saturday, 5 June, 2010, 19:47
> On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > What is the good reason usability team thought data
> from English
> > Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to
> design for all
> > other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an
> obvious mistake in
> > opposition of your statement.
>
>
> Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader
> groundswell in
> favour of hiding the interwiki links by default.
>
> Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there
> anyone
> else? On foundation-l or the blog?
>
> If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in
> favour, outside
> the Foundation staff?
>
> For a decision that directly contradicts the words of the
> mission
> statement, by hampering the process of people finding
> knowlege in
> their own language, this really does not appear good
> enough.
>
> Where is the communtiy or reader groundswell *in favour* of
> this move?
> It appears nonexistent.
>
>
> - d.
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>




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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
I'm not weighing in on the specific issue Aphaia, and I'm sure Howie will say more next week. My point is just what I said: the UX team is trying to balance all users' needs, which may or may not be the same as the extremely committed super-users who post here. Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to.

Thanks,
Sue
-----Original Message-----
From: Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 03:40:22
To: <susanpgardner@gmail.com>; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a
BadIdea, part 2

On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM, <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for top-posting.
>
> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs,


Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which
Jon and Eia began:
while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia,
it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have
no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English
speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet.

What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
opposition of your statement.

which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that
not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input,
but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has
made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this
particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)
>
> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below:
>
> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things.  They
> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the
> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort
> required to find things.  But if you take away a feature that's
> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and
> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny
> minority of users.  Basing development decisions on who complains the
> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and
> confusing features and lousy UI.  Like most open-source software,
> including MediaWiki.  Good design requires systematic analysis,
> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not
> representative."
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad
>        Idea, part 2
>
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Austin Hair wrote:
>>
>>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and
>>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected
>>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a
>>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid.
>>
>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that
>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting
>> anything of the sort).  Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that
>> one has been made in this instance.  As for a practical fix, one
>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone).
>
> Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else
> for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could
> easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is
> to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction.
>
> Austin
>
>_______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>_______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 8:03 PM, <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs, which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input, but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)

Regarding calling it a mistake, I'm making this judgment based not on
my personal opinion—which is by now abundantly clear—but on the
scientific basis that forming a conclusion without data makes for a
bad conclusion.

It's true that I wouldn't bother to weigh in on the process if I
agreed with the outcome. I think that's true for most of us. But
since I'm bothering anyway, I may as well say that the process is
flawed, and the decision doesn't logically follow the facts—since we
haven't measured (scientific jargon, here) the facts in the first
place.

Austin

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Sue Gardner wrote:

> Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words
> like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to.

Perhaps you misread the context. Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a
hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be
avoided. No one has hurled an insult.

David Levy

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Thanks for your clarification, Sue. I see it irritates to hear words
in such a tone to the team your office is expected to support, and
expect therefore you understand people on the list, who get deeply
involved into this cause and donate their time and works, irritate on
bad communication and lack of scientific information which can relieve
their worries.

And thank you for responding in prompt; I confess you reminded me on
yourself who I first met - it was in Taipei and you were busy to text
on blackberry, it brought me a smile in midst of this heated
discussion.

Hope to see you and many other on this list, soon in Gdansk and elsewhere

On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 4:15 AM, <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not weighing in on the specific issue Aphaia, and I'm sure Howie will say more next week. My point is just what I said: the UX team is trying to balance all users' needs, which may or may not be the same as the extremely committed super-users who post here.  Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to.
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 03:40:22
> To: <susanpgardner@gmail.com>; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a
>        BadIdea, part 2
>
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 3:03 AM,  <susanpgardner@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry for top-posting.
>>
>> Austin, think about who "everyone" is.  The folks here on foundation-l are not representative of readers.  The job of the user experience team is to try to balance all readers' needs,
>
>
> Sue, not personal, but I think here I say, joining to the choir which
> Jon and Eia began:
> while English Wikipedia is the most visited websites of the Wikimedia,
> it is only 50% and most of its readers are English Speaking. They have
> no good reasons I believe to representative the rest of us non-English
> speaking people who are 2/60 of this planet.
>
> What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
> Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
> other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
> opposition of your statement.
>
>  which is not easy, and will sometimes involve making decisions that
> not everyone agrees with. People here have given some useful input,
> but I think it's far from obvious that the user experience team has
> made a "mistake.". (I'm not really intending to weigh in on this
> particular issue -- I'm speaking generally.)
>>
>> Aryeh Gregor has said a couple of very smart things in this thread, particularly this bit I'll quote below:
>>
>> "Users don't explicitly complain about small things.  They
>> especially don't complain about things like clutter, because the
>> negative effect that has is barely perceptible -- extra effort
>> required to find things.  But if you take away a feature that's
>> important to a small number of users, or that's well established and
>> people are used to it, you'll get lots of complaints from a tiny
>> minority of users.  Basing development decisions on who complains the
>> loudest is what results in software packed with tons of useless and
>> confusing features and lousy UI.  Like most open-source software,
>> including MediaWiki.  Good design requires systematic analysis,
>> ignoring user complaints if the evidence indicates they're not
>> representative."
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Sue
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Austin Hair <adhair@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:56:26
>> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List<foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad
>>        Idea, part 2
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:47 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Austin Hair wrote:
>>>
>>>> And yes, I'll echo others when I question the original rationale and
>>>> suggest that the interpretation of what very little data was collected
>>>> is completely wrong, but I think I'll direct my focus toward a
>>>> practical fix, rather than just calling the usability team stupid.
>>>
>>> Your last sentence surprised me, as I haven't seen anyone opine that
>>> the usability team is stupid (and I certainly am not suggesting
>>> anything of the sort).  Everyone makes mistakes, and we believe that
>>> one has been made in this instance.  As for a practical fix, one
>>> actually was implemented (and quickly undone).
>>
>> Sorry if that wasn't clear—I didn't mean to indict you or anyone else
>> for doing that; all I meant was that although I, personally, could
>> easily focus on mistakes the usability team made, the way forward is
>> to simply fix it to everyone's satisfaction.
>>
>> Austin
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> KIZU Naoko
> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 11:47 AM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5 June 2010 19:40, Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What is the good reason usability team thought data from English
>> Wikipedia visitors' behaviors and alone were enough to design for all
>> other 200+ languages' readership? It looks me an obvious mistake in
>> opposition of your statement.
>
>
> Indeed. There appears to be *no* community or reader groundswell in
> favour of hiding the interwiki links by default.
>
> Where are the fans? So far I see Aryeh in favour. Is there anyone
> else? On foundation-l or the blog?
>
> If this is such a good idea, where are the voices in favour, outside
> the Foundation staff?

To be fair, it's not like there's a real good mechanism for giving
such opinions on discrete aspects of the skin (or anything else). I'd
imagine about all there is besides listening to us whinge is
clickthrough data (like reading tea leaves), the small usability
studies, and the feedback from the Vector Beta.

Let me repeat: On all of these questions that have been hotly debated
this month: the logo, the search box, the other languages links,
flaggedrevs.... we don't have a good way of figuring out what the
users think. Hell, we don't even have a good way of figuring out what
*we* think. Sue's right, Foundation-l is a tiny vocal minority and
those of us commenting may or may not represent anyone other than
ourselves. Same goes for the blog readers/commenters, who one expects
may care more about Wikipedia than most of the casual readers out
there. And I sure wouldn't presume to be able to magically synthesize
the internet, read all of the comments about wikipedia out there, and
give you an answer to such a (rhetorical?) question as "where are the
voices in favour"?
(and I do know enough about formal usability to know that usability
studies can be more useful than they seem at first glance, but this
problem of synthesizing widely held opinions & figuring out their
relative weight is something all large communities & sites have).

But even given all that, we all have valid opinions and points to make
too. We have a tradition in this community of making decisions based
on the quality of arguments made, not the sheer numbers of people
involved in voting for one option or another, and I think to lose
sight of that -- whether in usability or anything else -- would be
bad. At the end of the day, I deeply respect the usability team for
*trying new things*, even if we change it back later, and for trying
to make good decisions with the arguments and data at hand. I see no
bad faith here. Just a lively debate about what to do to make the best
possible Wikipedia experience for everyone concerned, even when
everyone concerned may use the site in wildly varying ways.

-- phoebe

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sue Gardner wrote:
>> Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words
>> like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to.
>
> Perhaps you misread the context.  Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a
> hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be
> avoided.  No one has hurled an insult.

Moreover "feedback" can itself be perceived as an insult.

Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important
paperwork and dumped it in a bin. You complain— "Hey we need that
stuff to be accessible!" and they retort "Thank you for your
_feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans".

We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a
decision, as we've always done, thank you very much.

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
+1. I must admit I have been a bit surprised/shocked/irritated by the
tone of the comments from some of those involved with the usability
initiative. I always thought that Wikimedia valued community
decision-making, but now I'm being told that my "feedback" is greatly
appreciated and will be taken into consideration. That kind of
attitude is what I was referring to earlier in this thread when I
wondered to myself if Wikipedia had "jumped the shark"[1]. I am
convinced that the unique organizational structure of our
organization, in which the community has historically been given a
very high level of authority in the decision-making process, is one of
the key elements of our success. Are we going to let that go over the
issue of UI usability? Have we entered a new chapter in our history as
a community in which we, the people who have helped build this
project, no longer get to help make the important decisions by
contributing our ideas and venting our frustrations? Let me be the
first to say that I am extraordinarily saddened at this thought.

-m.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark


On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 1:14 PM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 3:37 PM, David Levy <lifeisunfair@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sue Gardner wrote:
>>> Feedback is great, but it irritates me when people start using words
>>> like "stupid" -- that's what I was responding to.
>>
>> Perhaps you misread the context.  Austin wrote the word "stupid" as a
>> hypothetical example of nonconstructive commentary that should be
>> avoided.  No one has hurled an insult.
>
> Moreover "feedback" can itself be perceived as an insult.
>
> Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important
> paperwork and dumped it in a bin.  You complain— "Hey we need that
> stuff to be accessible!" and they retort  "Thank you for your
> _feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans".
>
> We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a
> decision, as we've always done, thank you very much.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: hiding interlanguage links by default is a BadIdea, part 2 [ In reply to ]
Gregory Maxwell writes:
>> Imagine that someone cleaning your office took your important
>> paperwork and dumped it in a bin. You complain— "Hey we need that
>> stuff to be accessible!" and they retort "Thank you for your
>> _feedback_. We'll consider it during our future cleaning plans".
>>
>> We're not just providing feedback here. We're collectively making a
>> decision, as we've always done, thank you very much.

Well put.

It's great to see new things being tried.
It seems to me this sort of change (any big change) might work out
more smoothly if the final implementation of any major change was
separated from its development. That implementation can be handled by
people who have long experience specifically with collective
decisions, rolling out changes, identifying and isolating
controversial bits, &c.

We're not bad at that within community discussions -- and the
"line-item rollback" ability for people to simply undo specific
changes that irk them makes this much, much easier to manage.

Any time a central process becomes a bottleneck to "considering
feedback" it becomes harder to swiftly reach a harmonious conclusion.


On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Mark Williamson <node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am convinced that the unique organizational structure of our
> organization, in which the community has historically been given a
> very high level of authority in the decision-making process, is one of
> the key elements of our success.

Almost certainly.

> Have we entered a new chapter in our history as
> a community in which we, the people who have helped build this
> project, no longer get to help make the important decisions by
> contributing our ideas and venting our frustrations?

Absolutely not.

SJ


PS - as one more data point on the interlang links specifically: I
also use the rollover text of interlanguage links for translation -
even when I have other good translation resources handy. That is one
of our great accomplishments, and we should make more noise about it,
not less. :-)

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