Mailing List Archive

Community (A Modest Proposal)
-------------------------
Where is the community?
-------------------------

I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
and every one else is chopped liver.

Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
Python API" if you are interested.)

So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
negative attitudes within this community.

This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.

You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.

But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!





--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -------------------------
>  Where is the community?
> -------------------------
[snip]
>
> You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
> more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
> community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
> behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
> community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
> equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
> contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.
>
> I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
> myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
> to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
> However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
> developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
>
> But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
> stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
> on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
> not be hidden as you like. Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
> will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
> negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
> group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
> this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!

8/10 on the troll scale. Handsome work.

You are aware that python has over 120 core commiters - which is quite
large for a project of our size. To put it differently: at a typical
PyCon any random lunch table will have someone with a commit bit
sitting at it. 900 people are listed in Misc/ACKS which is lower than
the real number because people frequently forget to include it in
their patch (or are too modest to do so).

Furthermore the PSF now has an active program to get more people
involved with core development. A combination of money and volunteer
time is being spent on encouraging would-be contributors to do so.

In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
needs.

If-it-walks-like-a-troll-and-smells-like-a-troll-it's-a-troll-ly,

-Jack
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Jack Diederich <jackdied@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 11:09 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> -------------------------
>>  Where is the community?
>> -------------------------
> [snip]

[snip]

> In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
> taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
> use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
> volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
> needs.

I'm sorry Rick (if that's even your name), I have to agree with Jack.

Nobody really enjoys or even cares (or likes) people that complain
and contribute nothing. I have read (and I believe was partly involved
with your thread 1.5 years ago or so) and well it seemed you were
only interested in finding out if "others" were willing to put "their time"
and effort into doing the work.

Also I should point out that no-one is going to take you seriously
when you publically point out your 1.5 years experience in using
(what projects have you actively worked on and contributed to?) Python.

Have a nice day,

cheers
James
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
Jack Diederich <jackdied@gmail.com> writes:

> In various threads you haven't met the minimum qualifications to be
> taken seriously: you have contributed no code, don't even bother to
> use something that looks like a real name, and continually demand that
> volunteers (which we all are) write code to fulfill your speculative
> needs.

I'll agree with all the above except the “not look like a real name”
part.

I have no objection to people using pseudonyms; I can't reasonably
expect that I know whether someone's name is real or pseudonymous, and
it would be unfair of me to prejudge on that basis.

What social discourse requires of us, though, is that we at least
demonstrate an effort to differentiate ourselves in public from others
who might pick the same identity (on which basis an identity of “r”
fails), and that we don't expect to be taken seriously when beginning to
use a new persona (on which basis suddenly switching to an identiy of
“rantingrick” fails).

Consistently using the *same* identity in our discourse, with a good
level of confidence that it's distinct from other identities out there,
is needed in order for reputation and trust to be earned.

> If-it-walks-like-a-troll-and-smells-like-a-troll-it's-a-troll-ly,

Thanks for the well-worded response.

--
\ “The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix bugs. |
`\ It's absolutely not.” —Bill Gates, 1995-10-23 |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 12Jun2010 20:09, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
| I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
| a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
| and every one else is chopped liver.

Hmm. I think this is an overreaction. I must be chopped liver myself,
though I've rarely felt outright rejected here.

Of course, me not being part of the core" and all, everything below is
merely my opinion.

| Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
| but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
| going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
| they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

The stdlib isn't where code should start.

Code should start on your machine, probably then post to
http://pypi.python.org/pypi when it's usable (and, in your opinion at
least, _useful_) if you want others to have easy access.

Stuff for the stdlib needs to serve a widely felt need, solve the
problem in a well defined way and be both clean in interface and
practially bugfree. This is because _everyone_ who uses python gets a
copy of the stdlib and should be able to rely on it totally for what
facilities it does provide.

| For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
| was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
| fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
| advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
| the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
| Python API" if you are interested.)

A direct link to the start of thread would have been nice... Anyway,
I've just searched it out and read chunk of it.

Your enthusiasm is encouraging, but you _do_ start by bagging Ruby and
saying nobody can find it easy to use. This is clearly false given how
many people like it so much - it certainly appears very succinct to my
eye from the examples I've seen, and it _will_ appeal strong to people
of a mathematical bent and likely fans of functional languages.

Then as the thread progresses you rant somewhat about how nobdy is
jumping in to join your quest to bring Python to SketchUp, and complain
that nobody is prepared to advocate for python in another arena.

You're doing this wrong:

- you need to produce a prototyple yourself first, however small

- you need to not bag out Ruby, especially if you're going to
go and repeat the exercise in the existing Ruby-centric list

- you need to _not_ expect help on your pet project here in python-list;
the place you're going to find SketchUp enthusiasts is the SketchUp list,
not here; go and ask "can someone help me make a Python API paralleling
the Ruby API" _there_!


| So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
| starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
| utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
| How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
| yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
| responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
| reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
| place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
| insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

I've read some of these responses. You're misreading things, or coming
with unrealistic expectations.

You did get a "put up of shut up" response; this was blunt, but you
really do need to bring stuff to the party yourself. There are many many
people who think "something should be done" for a variety of somethings.
But for your pet "something" you must provide a start of your own; my
incomplete scan of the thread suggests that _here_, in c.l.p/python-list,
you are the sole SketchUp scripting enthusiast.
So you should be looking for supporters there, not here.

| Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
| fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
| IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
| However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
| was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
| negative attitudes within this community.

No, it speaks volumes to your expectations. c.l.p is, in my experience,
an _extremely_ civil group. Occasionally blunt, but almost invariably
willing to listen to reason and examples, and to critique examples.
In this list there is a very strong ethic (for want of a word) for use
cases as justification for "need".

So in this instance I would expect you to start in the SketchUp group
and find someone to help you write an API, even as a layer that calls
the Ruby API.

In c.l.p, I would think it reasonable to come here and say
"I have this code [href to code, or inline small snippet reproducing the
issue" and I can't find enough Python expertise in the SketchUp list to
solve this problem".

It is _not_ reasonable to expect non-SketchUp users to make you an API
or to go to the SketchUp list to support you.

Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.

| This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
| programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
| narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
| speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
| mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
| to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
|
| You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
| more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
| community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
| behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
| community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
| equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
| contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

Bah.

Your supposed "community" is a discussion place for people with Python
interest. A co-operative anarchy, like a lot of things. It is not a
club or other formal grouping.

Aside from the core devs of the language implementors and the real
maintainer of the various library packages, everyone else is here to
have on-topic, usually technical, discussions about python. _Nobody_
is under an obligation to assist. Complaining because others don't share
your particular itch _will_ get you negative responses.

| I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
| myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
| to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
| However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
| developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
|
| But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
| stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
| on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
| not be hidden as you like.

You don't need to need to hide; list members can killfile you as they
see fit, and not be particularly bothered. Their choice:-)

| Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
| will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
| negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
| group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
| this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!

Hmm. Your efforts are misdirected. It would be better to devote your
energies to implementing something useful, such as your API.

Other list members surely have enough on their plates; I don't have enough
time to work on my own stuff, and I don't even have a life! Nobody needs
to do this stuff for you unless they personally want the same thing.

Cheers,
--
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Weakness is a better teacher than strength. Weakness must learn to
understand the obstacles that strength brushes aside. - Mason Cooley
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
In article <8d93f1e1-1c49-4abc-832c-5501b6109f03@a16g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I will bring some positive attitudes to this group if it's the last
>thing i do!

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then
shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it." --Dijkstra
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
I call bullshit.

The Python community is vibrant, accessible, and willing to endure far
more then anyone has any right to expect when people come to it for help.

The community seems willing to explain fundamental concepts to newbies
over, and over, and over again; to go out of their way, time and again,
to spend countless man-hours showing newbies how to think in Python, how
to be successful in Python, how to excel in Python.

It does expect something from those coming to it for aide; it expects
the seeker to disclose the problem in a complete, clear manner, with
real code and errors, with clear questions; and then it goes out of its
way to explain what all is going on, and how to approach the problem in
a Pythonic way.

And when the newbies fail to show even the vaguest level of
due-diligence (let alone, ability to simply Google a problem), the
community doesn't call them idiots, doesn't tell them to RTFM and GFYS,
but explains again, how best to ask a question, what to include so that
we can help you best, and then try to find a solution, even when the
community is dubious of the intent of the asker.

Why do people respond poorly to you?

Because you don't just argue a point of view.

You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.

None of that is true, on any factual level.

Time and time again, you presume to speak for "us", for "we", and that's
detestable.

Meaning to or not, you come across as a troll, as if these emotional
responses are your end and not your means.

Make an argument. Support it with facts, leave out the rhetoric, make
your case. This is a forum of engineers-- even if most of us aren't
professional engineers, and many are just starting along the line of
becoming engineers. But this is not a religious organization. This is
not a political party. By and large, we don't mind if someone chooses
another solution. (Yes, I'm speaking for "we" now, I know)

Practicality beats purity.

This is a fundamental concept, not only in Python, but in the community.
The community is about solving problems. Not an agenda. There is no
desire to win. There is no desire to be best. There is a desire for
individuals to be empowered to succeed.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 6/12/10 10:10 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.

+1 QOTW

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
<snip all>
At first I wanted to response in the style of 'karma is a bitch' or
'what goes around comes around' but then I considered that won't be
helping much, so I only did at first in a meta sort of way, sorry for that.
The thing is that sometimes for no good or appealing reasons, which I
personally think in this case isn't so, the whole world is against you.

So I would propose that, instead of beating up a dead horse (I try to
write from your point of view) you fork the project, call it Rython (or
whatever you fancy) and create the community you want by patching up the
language to your standards.

I promise if there is something where I am competent enough I will
seriously consider contributing.

--
mph

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Jun 13, 5:04 am, "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hell...@dcuktec.org>
wrote:

> So I would propose that, instead of beating up a dead horse (I try to
> write from your point of view) you fork the project, call it Rython (or
> whatever you fancy) and create the community you want by patching up the
> language to your standards.

I have considered this although i dared not say it on the list until
all diplomatic means have failed, and it seems that we have reached
that point. Also i do not think splitting the community was a good
idea. However, if the ivory towers continue to pretend that the rest
of the Python community does not exist well then they will force my
hand, and i will start a fork. Then we will have a sort of ironic
situation... the very people who rail *against* me (and others) would
actually be working *for* me unwillingly but without recourse. he-he
Yes, as you've said "karma *is* a bitch" ;-)

> I promise if there is something where I am competent enough I will
> seriously consider contributing.

That is a wonderful response Martin thank you. I don't know if you are
serious, but a wonderful response nonetheless!
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Jun 13, 1:50 am, Stephen Hansen <me+list/pyt...@ixokai.io> wrote:

> You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
> reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
> pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
> bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
> your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
> gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
> language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.

Could it be that *you* are taking my opinions and suggestions too
emotionality?

> Meaning to or not, you come across as a troll, as if these emotional
> responses are your end and not your means.

My *ends* are to move Python forward. No i do not i have all the
answers however i can look at what i do see and ask the hard
questions. Then i would like to get some "thoughtful" answers.

Instead of just simply barking down orders from the top we need to
have useful discussion on the many topics that concern Python. And not
just the "core" developers or the "core" protagonist on this list
should be involved in this discussion. Everyone needs to have a chance
to speak.

My are arguments for Tkinter/Tcl/Tk are all true. However it should be
a community decision (not my sole decision or yours!) as to whether
Tkinter stays or not. As i have said before i *do* actually use
Tkinter quite a lot (along with other libraries). But we must make a
choice, Keep Tkinter and improve it, or dump Tkinter and consider
something that will scale better for the future. I AM HAPPY EITHER
WAY!

I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
responses i ever get are...

"Nobody uses IDLE"
"Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
"I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"

... and all these arguments are BS! It's just more argumentative
hyperbole that keeps these and many other modules in static
development. I am also committing to contributing code myself *if* it
will be seriously considered on the *value* of the code and NOT *who*
it originated from. But i digress...

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Jun 13, 4:09 am, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Where is the community?

In Birmingham from 17th to 22nd of July:
http://www.europython.eu/talks/timetable/

(Couldn't resist - one good troll deserves another)
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
In article <0912f443-e83a-4436-80db-b1cb915d552a@r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Zeth <theology@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 13, 4:09=A0am, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Where is the community?
>
>In Birmingham from 17th to 22nd of July:
>http://www.europython.eu/talks/timetable/
>
>(Couldn't resist - one good troll deserves another)

That's not a troll, that's publicity! And a nice subversion of the
troll.
--
Aahz (aahz@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it." --Dijkstra
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 6/13/10 9:14 AM, rantingrick wrote:
> On Jun 13, 1:50 am, Stephen Hansen <me+list/pyt...@ixokai.io> wrote:
>
>> You don't argue a position; you don't support it with facts, logic,
>> reason. You start immediately into this emotional rhetoric,
>> pseudo-inspirational nonsense which just comes off as inane. It's like a
>> bad cross between a politician and an self-help speaker, and the crux of
>> your arguments are focused on that emotional charge-- how TCL is impure,
>> gross, and its inclusion makes us "less", makes us the mockery of the
>> language world, how everyone loathes and detests it.
>
> Could it be that *you* are taking my opinions and suggestions too
> emotionality?

No. Your emotional impact on me has been zero.

However, all you do is spew emotionally charged rhetoric. It doesn't
actually *work*, you don't fire me up, inspire me, convince me that
you've somehow made a point and said something of substance, as I can
recognize you have not. You start from a certain point you want to make,
and instead of making it with an actual argument, you start spewing
emotionally-charged nonsense. This is what politicians do to try to get
around not saying anything of substance or supporting their positions.
They're just better at it.

Do you want quotes? Okay!

--

You: "Insane asylums are filled to the rafters with these people. They walk
around with tin foil wrapped around their heads supposedly because
cell phone towers are "really" mind control devices. Well at least
thats their side of the story ;-). You can also compare this attitude
to a heart transplant recipient who says he doesn't want the heart if
it came from a black, brown, or yellow person. In that case the hatred
is race based but it is exactly the same thing as we have here. Hate
is hate no matter what "form" it takes or "excuse" it makes."

Translation: "I make the vague allusion of an insane asylum, then
include blatant bigotry and ignorance, and make sure to bring up the
'hatred' card and therefore through these utterly irrelevant additions,
I have discredited the opposition and I am therefore right."

--

You: "These people are the ones who cannot change with the times. You know
what they say. """ Change with the times or get left behind""". They
would rather hack together a curses front-end than to drop into a GUI,
yes really. You old timers need to get with the program, GUI is here
to stay until wet-ware interfaces take over. So drag yourself into the
21st century (kicking and screaming if necessary)"

Translation: "I realize there is a significant subset of the community
who believe that GUI's should not be included in the stdlib, and they
have made coherent arguments as to why: since I can not refute them
directly, I shall write them into the position of being an anachronism,
a thing of the past to be moved on from and pitied. Even though they
have not lobbied for a great Return to the Console and abandonment of
the mouse, I shall imply that they have so you can discredit their
opinions as mere fringe fanaticism."

--

You: "Oh Please lets not help user in the age of
"take-over-my-puter--all-my-
data, and-my-freedoms, and-then-force-me-to-be-a-slave-to-you-just-so-
i-can-use-my-data, with-your-permission, master!" era. Yes i have seen
these GUI, HTML, CSS, Javascript freaks of nature and lament them
daily! What a nightmare! Give me a good ole GUI and get the hell outta
my way!"

Translation: "The reality that more then one modern GUI(both QT and the
latest from Microsoft come to mind) systems have incorporated technology
that originated on the web into their application-based user interface
systems (not to be confused with a web user interface) is not lost on
me, but for whatever reason I just object in principle. So, instead of
arguing against such technologies on their merit, I shall distract the
entire point into the realm of hype and web-based applications, and
remind people of the dangers of giving our data over to The Cloud, and
that the Web 2.0 is all about taking control away you."

--

You: "But we sure don't need an embedded TCL interpretor packaged
with Python either *YUCK*!!!"

Translation: "Even though I have absolutely no idea what technological
problems having TCL bundled with Python presents, I'm going to appeal to
your inner purist and fanatic, and say: If its not in Python, its
rubbish! Just cuz."

--

You: "psst, hey Guido, it's time to make your triumphant comeback to
c.l.p. We are waiting..."

Translation: "As part of my ongoing passive-aggressive Tea Party-like
anger towards the Establishment over on python-dev, I shall repeatedly
make references to the abandonment of The Community by Those in Power
(and Guido in particular), and through this shall continue to try to
inspire you my fellow brothers to rise up and take Python back! All the
while attempting to appear to be at least a member of the loyal opposition."

--

You: "... well just keep your negativity to yourself. When you have real
solutions or real ideas that could foster real solutions then for
Pete's sake bring them forth and let them be weighed in the balances
of truth. But i can tell you right now, everyone will have to
sacrifice something to get the perfect GUI for Python. Yes you heard
me correctly, the perfect GUI for Python! Not the perfect GUI for you,
me, or even xah lee!"

Translation: "Although your challenge of my idea or position was purely
technical and fact-based, I will dismiss it as 'negativity' and declare
that you are one of those moochers who don't ever actually contribute,
that way your opinion won't actually mean anything when compared to mine."

I could go on all day. You do it ALL THE TIME. Not only on this thread.

Its tiresome.

> Instead of just simply barking down orders from the top we need to
> have useful discussion on the many topics that concern Python. And not
> just the "core" developers or the "core" protagonist on this list
> should be involved in this discussion. Everyone needs to have a chance
> to speak.

As I said before: The Python community is far, far, far larger then this
mailing list. It has broad and diverse interests.

> My are arguments for Tkinter/Tcl/Tk are all true. However it should be
> a community decision (not my sole decision or yours!) as to whether
> Tkinter stays or not.

Actually, it is not a community decision.

It is, according to every policy that I'm aware of, pretty much set in
stone that Tkinter stays.

The only way in which it can be removed (or, really, significantly
changed in a backwards-incompatible way) would be for you to write a
PEP, have it fully fleshed out with both pro and con arguments, and try
to build a community consensus around the issue, one way or the other.

If you fail to get a consensus, the status quo almost certainly stands
(though the BDFL can step in and rule one way or the other: he tends to
be pretty conservative on these things unless there's something new made
possible and elegant)

If you succeed to get a consensus, then it probably goes through another
round of debate on python-dev, and then Guido (or, sometimes, a delegate
he appoints) decides one way or the other, taking the 'consensus' under
advisement.

At least, this seems to be how such works out from my outsider's
perspective of watching the threads go along.

> As i have said before i *do* actually use
> Tkinter quite a lot (along with other libraries). But we must make a
> choice, Keep Tkinter and improve it, or dump Tkinter and consider
> something that will scale better for the future. I AM HAPPY EITHER
> WAY!

There is a third choice: The status quo is satisfactory.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:
> However, if the ivory towers continue to pretend that the rest
> of the Python community does not exist well then they will force my
> hand, and i will start a fork. Then we will have a sort of ironic
> situation... the very people who rail *against* me (and others) would
> actually be working *for* me unwillingly but without recourse. he-he
> Yes, as you've said "karma *is* a bitch" ;-)

There is nothing ironic about it.

They will not be working for you; and they will not actually care in the
least that you have forked the code. They will not mind. They will not
be hurt, hampered, threatened, or in any way inconvenienced. They will
continue to do what they always have done. Volunteer to a project that
they care about.

The terms of that volunteer donation is that the work is open source;
not just open source, but open source with a very liberal license, that
says anyone can do basically anything they want. Including package it up
in a commercial application and make millions without ever giving
anything back, if one so chooses.

They know the license. They are fully aware of the terms by which they
do their volunteer work. They don't care what you do with it.

Its yours to use as you please.

Welcome to Open Source (not to be confused with Free Software, where
they don't care what you *do* with it, but do care that if you share it,
you share it on their terms-- note this statement is intended to be
taken as a neutral statement and not a condemnation of one over the other).

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 6/13/2010 12:14 PM, rantingrick wrote:

> I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
> responses i ever get are...
>
> "Nobody uses IDLE"
> "Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
> "I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"

Perhaps you are listening selectively. I have said more than once on
this list that I use IDLE, I like using it, it works for me, AND I would
like it improved. When a student proposed that as part of a Google
Summer of Code project, I (and others) encouraged him to go ahead, which
he did. Any concrete effort you make to improve IDLE would be
appreciated by me. There are issues on the tracker already.

Terry Jan Reedy

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:42:57 -0700, rantingrick wrote:

> i will start a fork.

That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
be a great thing for the Python community.


--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
Here's the thing. Python has one of the nicest communities of most
software projects (except maybe ubuntu), try Perl or C. Unless you
completely know what you're talking about, have spent atleast 1/2 an
hour researching your problem, those guys will refrain from helping.

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 6/13/2010 12:14 PM, rantingrick wrote:
>
>> I have documented time and again the poor state of IDLE. The only
>> responses i ever get are...
>>
>>  "Nobody uses IDLE"
>>  "Only a dumbass would use IDLE"
>>  "I have never used IDLE but i *know* nothing is wrong with it"
>
> Perhaps you are listening selectively. I have said more than once on this
> list that I use IDLE, I like using it, it works for me, AND I would like it
> improved. When a student proposed that as part of a Google Summer of Code
> project, I (and others) encouraged him to go ahead, which he did. Any
> concrete effort you make to improve IDLE would be appreciated by me. There
> are issues on the tracker already.
>
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve@remove-this-cybersource.com.au> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:42:57 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
>
>> i will start a fork.
>
> That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
> be a great thing for the Python community.
Eagerly awaiting the transfer of this thread to comp.lang.rython
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 13/06/2010 18:24, Stephen Hansen wrote:
> On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:

[big snip]

Stephen, you've tried as have others with this troll, but you're wasting
your time. As I said a day or two back by paraphrasing Tommy Docherty,
Ranting Rick is to Python what King Herod was to baby sitting.

I guess the best thing to do is let the poor little child go home to
mummy, grab his comfort blanket and teddy, have a lovely glass of warm
milk and some biscuits, and then let mummy tuck him up safely in bed.

Do I hate him (I assume him), or despise him or whatever. No. I feel
very sorry for him. As he is incapable of communicating effectively I
seriously do wonder if he suffers from some form of autism, Asperger
Syndrome maybe?

Seriously.

Mark Lawrence.


--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On 6/13/10 12:08 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 13/06/2010 18:24, Stephen Hansen wrote:
>> On 6/13/10 8:42 AM, rantingrick wrote:
>
> [big snip]
>
> Stephen, you've tried as have others with this troll, but you're wasting
> your time.

Realistically, I know. However, http://xkcd.com/386/ currently has a
grip on my spine.

> Do I hate him (I assume him), or despise him or whatever. No. I feel
> very sorry for him.

I feel very little one way or the other. Largely emotionally neutral on
the whole thing.

> As he is incapable of communicating effectively I
> seriously do wonder if he suffers from some form of autism, Asperger
> Syndrome maybe?

No offense, but I don't find such speculations or discussion of mental
illness to be appropriate.

I take issue with his communication style, that's all.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
* Steven D'Aprano, on 13.06.2010 19:57:
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:42:57 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
>
>> i will start a fork.
>
> That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it will
> be a great thing for the Python community.

Not nice to quote out of context, there was an "if" and a "then" earlier in
Rick's sentence.

I don't think he'll do it, or if he does, I don't think it will fly.

There are two reasons why I think it won't fly if attempted. One is the
technical aspect: it's just too much, and maintaining compatibility with
libraries is in direct conflict with the goal of improvement. The other is
social: I don't think it would be possible to establish a sufficiently large
supportive community for something in direct competition with CPython.

What I think will happen regarding the future of Python is the same as currently
is happening with C++. The language evolved or rather perhaps "devolved" into
higher complexity than its users, and even the compiler vendors, felt
comfortable with. And then a number of similar but simpler languages (e.g.
Objective C and Walter Bright's D, not to mentioned "C++ as a better C" and
various formalizations of that subset idea) started to fill some of the niche
that C++ earlier had all of; this is still an ongoing process.

Comparing C++ and Python evolution may seem far fetched, but e.g. the C++
standardization working groups adopted the idea of PEPs from Python. In C++
they're called "proposals" or "papers" but it's much the same thing. Python has
Guido, C++ has Bjarne. In both cases the original language was designed
single-handedly by the god. And in both cases it's now essentially
design-by-committee.


Cheers,

- Alf

--
blog at <url: http://alfps.wordpress.com>
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
> Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
> fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
> IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
> However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
> was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
> negative attitudes within this community.

While I'm not new to software development in other languages, I'm
completely new to Python and the Python community. I've only been
here about a week and have asked some pretty elementary questions
during that time only to be greeted respectfully and offered help.
>From reading the posts on this group, it seems like the Python
community is much like any other programming (or even just volunteer
community): they're helpful if you show you're willing to do the work
yourself and if you show you've at least tried to solve the problem
yourself to a degree (even if you've failed). Volunteer communities
have little patience for the 'do it for me' mindset as *everyone* is
busy with jobs, life, and their own pet projects.

Overall, I couldn't disagree with you more. I find most communities
(and the c.l.p community in particular) *very* accessible and very
helpful. On the other hand, I *could* see how your post could scare
off newbies from jumping in for fear of being 'attacked' as you say
you were. IMHO, your posts serves no purpose but to hurt the community
and scare away newbies.

Anthony Papillion
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
Someone Something <fordhaivat@gmail.com> writes:

> Here's the thing. Python has one of the nicest communities of most
> software projects (except maybe ubuntu), try Perl or C. Unless you
> completely know what you're talking about, have spent atleast 1/2 an
> hour researching your problem, those guys will refrain from helping.

Not entirely true, but I do agree, as a long time Perl programmer, that
the Usenet Perl community has an above average share of asshats. I have
made several attempts to fix that, recent and in the past, but it's just
a small clique of regulars that consider themselves above a lot.

Compared to that I do consider this group (I read this via Usenet) a lot
more friendly.

On the other hand, I do agree that if one wants to learn a programming
language but considers looking in the obvious places (FAQ, perldoc,
etc.) already too much work that programming isn't for that person. And
that answering such questions will soon result in a vast stream of
questions by the same person, a lot of which could've been answered by a
few hours of self-study.


Anyway, thanks everybody here for keeping this place readable ;-)

Finally, regarding the readable thing: I prefer if people don't top
post, or at least don't quote the entire message at the bottom if they
consider their reply stand alone enough to warrant a top post.

--
John Bokma j3b

Hacking & Hiking in Mexico - http://johnbokma.com/
http://castleamber.com/ - Perl & Python Development
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Community (A Modest Proposal) [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:14:34 +0200, Alf P. Steinbach wrote:

> * Steven D'Aprano, on 13.06.2010 19:57:
>> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:42:57 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
>>
>>> i will start a fork.
>>
>> That is the most sensible thing you have said yet. Please do so, it
>> will be a great thing for the Python community.
>
> Not nice to quote out of context, there was an "if" and a "then" earlier
> in Rick's sentence.

And regardless of the qualifications he gave, RantingRick starting his
own fork will be a wonderful thing for oh so many reasons.


> I don't think he'll do it, or if he does, I don't think it will fly.

Please don't discourage him.

What the Python community needs more than anything else right now is for
RantingRick to create a community of all those who share his vision for
the future without all the negative energy from those who disagree with
him. I encourage him to start immediately.


> I don't think it would be possible to establish a
> sufficiently large supportive community for something in direct
> competition with CPython.

The CPython developers (particularly Guido) are explicitly encouraging
alternate implementations. I can't find the exact quote, but as I
understand it, Guido's vision is to keep CPython as the reference
implementation while encouraging people to use whatever implementation
meets their specific needs, rather than trying to make CPython all things
for all people.

For example, the moratorium on new features to the language was
explicitly to give Jython, IronPython and other implementations time to
catch up to CPython 3.1.

If RantingRick believes that CPython is not going in the direction that
the community wants, he should create his own implementation. If he
builds something the community wants, they will come.

If an alternative implementation is too much for him, even a repackaged
distribution like Komodo or similar would be a great thing. Let him
repackage CPython with whatever GUI toolkit he thinks the community wants.



--
Steven
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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