Mailing List Archive

Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6
As of Thursday 28 April at about noon (EDT) most of our IPv6 inbound traffic
shifted to our backup ISP. A little digging shows that we are receiving no
routes from AS15169 (Google) via Cogent. They are no longer peered via IPv6.
No HE and no Google. That somewhat limits the usefulness of our IPv6
connectivity via Cogent.

Anybody else notice this?

Phil
RE: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
We get to ipv6.google.com via Sprint today, even though we are IPv6-peered
with Cogent and Qwest and have (had?) an HE tunnel as well. I used RIPE's
bgplay and there was no indication of routing changes for Google's IPv6
prefix.

Frank

-----Original Message-----
From: ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de
[mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de] On Behalf Of
Phil Benchoff
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:27 PM
To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
Subject: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6

As of Thursday 28 April at about noon (EDT) most of our IPv6 inbound
traffic
shifted to our backup ISP. A little digging shows that we are receiving no
routes from AS15169 (Google) via Cogent. They are no longer peered via
IPv6.
No HE and no Google. That somewhat limits the usefulness of our IPv6
connectivity via Cogent.

Anybody else notice this?

Phil
RE: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Frank,

On Mon, 2011-05-02 at 22:44 -0500, Frank Bulk wrote:
> We get to ipv6.google.com via Sprint today, even though we are IPv6-peered
> with Cogent and Qwest and have (had?) an HE tunnel as well.

A simple check for _15169_ among your received v6-prefixes from Cogent
would be useful then. :)

> I used RIPE's bgplay and there was no indication of routing changes
> for Google's IPv6 prefix.

That doesn't contradict Phil's observation:
I just checked 2001:4800::/23 in RIS, and I see zero paths via 174 to
it, despite at least one RIS full peer having 174-transit according to
IRR data.

/M

> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de
> [mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de] On Behalf Of
> Phil Benchoff
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:27 PM
> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6
>
> As of Thursday 28 April at about noon (EDT) most of our IPv6 inbound
> traffic
> shifted to our backup ISP. A little digging shows that we are receiving no
> routes from AS15169 (Google) via Cogent. They are no longer peered via
> IPv6.
> No HE and no Google. That somewhat limits the usefulness of our IPv6
> connectivity via Cogent.
>
> Anybody else notice this?
>
> Phil
>
RE: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Yes, we're receiving 15169 from Cogent.

Frank

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Millnert [mailto:martin@millnert.se]
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 11:28 PM
To: frnkblk@iname.com
Cc: 'Phil Benchoff'; ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
Subject: RE: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6

Frank,

On Mon, 2011-05-02 at 22:44 -0500, Frank Bulk wrote:
> We get to ipv6.google.com via Sprint today, even though we are IPv6-peered
> with Cogent and Qwest and have (had?) an HE tunnel as well.

A simple check for _15169_ among your received v6-prefixes from Cogent
would be useful then. :)

> I used RIPE's bgplay and there was no indication of routing changes
> for Google's IPv6 prefix.

That doesn't contradict Phil's observation:
I just checked 2001:4800::/23 in RIS, and I see zero paths via 174 to
it, despite at least one RIS full peer having 174-transit according to
IRR data.

/M

> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de
> [mailto:ipv6-ops-bounces+frnkblk=iname.com@lists.cluenet.de] On Behalf Of
> Phil Benchoff
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:27 PM
> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6
>
> As of Thursday 28 April at about noon (EDT) most of our IPv6 inbound
> traffic
> shifted to our backup ISP. A little digging shows that we are receiving no
> routes from AS15169 (Google) via Cogent. They are no longer peered via
> IPv6.
> No HE and no Google. That somewhat limits the usefulness of our IPv6
> connectivity via Cogent.
>
> Anybody else notice this?
>
> Phil
>
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
* Frank Bulk

> Yes, we're receiving 15169 from Cogent.

Hi Frank,

In Oslo we don't:

tore@cr2> show route aspath-regex 174.*15169.* table inet6.0 all

inet6.0: 5570 destinations, 11272 routes (5569 active, 0 holddown, 1 hidden)

tore@cr2>

Traceroutes from all PoPs available at
<http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass> to www.google.com's
IPv6 address all result in a !H error. Where do you take transit from
them from?

I opened a ticket with them about it and so far I've only gotten a
boiler-plate answer that does not at all shed any light on the
situation, considering that they used to carry those routes before.

So either there's some kind of technical problem going on, or one
network depeered the other. Considering that Cogent seems unable or
unwilling to give a clear answer, I have my suspicions...

* eu-support@cogentco.com

> You have enquired with Cogent Support about missing routes in the
> IPv6 routing table provided to you by Cogent as part of your Internet
> service. We understand your concerns and would like to provide you
> with additional information on the matter.
>
> As you know, the Internet is made up of tens of thousands of networks
> which must be interconnected, either by means of direct peering
> between individual networks, or by connection to upstream transit
> providers. For IPv4 routes, the Internet follows these
> interconnection rules and enables transit providers (such as Cogent)
> to provide a full global IPv4 routing table to their customers. IPv6
> interconnection, on the other hand, has not yet reached this level of
> maturity.
>
> Like other providers, Cogent is actively expanding its IPV6 routing
> table. This is not always easy due to the fact that certain networks
> do not announce the IPV6 routes of their customers to their upstream
> providers. Hence such IPv6 routes are not visible to the entire
> Internet. As a result, no network in the world can claim to provide
> a full global routing table to its customers. Cogent remains
> confident that IPv6 interconnection will gradually attain the same
> level of maturity as IPV4. In the mean time, Cogent is continuously
> working on improving global IPv6 connectivity by adding new IPv6
> routes to its network on a daily basis and collaborating with the
> Internet carriers' community to achieve ubiquitous IPv6 coverage
>
> Cogent Support remains at your disposal for any subsequent questions
> you may have.

--
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
* Tore Anderson

> So either there's some kind of technical problem going on, or one
> network depeered the other. Considering that Cogent seems unable or
> unwilling to give a clear answer, I have my suspicions...

And after pressing them a bit on the issue, I got:

> Hello Tore,
> here is the statement of our Peering department:
>
> "[...] we don't peer with Google because they don't meet
> our peering policy and as a result we will not get this v6 route."

--
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 04:14:36PM +0200, Tore Anderson wrote:
> > Hello Tore,
> > here is the statement of our Peering department:
> >
> > "[...] we don't peer with Google because they don't meet
> > our peering policy and as a result we will not get this v6 route."

Thanks for sharing.

I think I'll print this out and use it to slap their sales droids with
next time they come visit. Not that we're inclined to buy there anyway,
but this really nicely reinforces the point.

Gert Doering
-- NetMaster
--
did you enable IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
>From my point of view it seems like Level(3) has the same issue:

http://lg.level3.net/traceroute/traceroute.cgi?site=ams1&target=ipv6.google.com&ipv6=true

table inet6.0

inet6.0: 4374 destinations, 12674 routes (4374 active, 0 holddown, 0
hidden)

Best Regards,

Hans

>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 04:14:36PM +0200, Tore Anderson wrote:
>> > Hello Tore,
>> > here is the statement of our Peering department:
>> >
>> > "[...] we don't peer with Google because they don't meet
>> > our peering policy and as a result we will not get this v6 route."
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
> I think I'll print this out and use it to slap their sales droids with
> next time they come visit. Not that we're inclined to buy there anyway,
> but this really nicely reinforces the point.
>
> Gert Doering
> -- NetMaster
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
> Hello Tore,
> here is the statement of our Peering department:
>
> "[...] we don't peer with Google because they don't meet
> our peering policy and as a result we will not get this v6 route."

Well, that will won't bode well for single homed Cogent customers on World
IPv6 day, Even if Cogent can send the ICMPv6 unreachable and the customer
doesn't filter it on the way back, I wonder how many stacks will notice
and provide the user a good experience with Google page loads.

Dave.
RE: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
I misinterpreted our upstream networking guy's response -- we get 15169 via Sprint. So that's consistent with your experience.

Any way to find out when Google de-peered with Cogent? I'm sure Renesys has that kind of data.

Frank


-----Original Message-----
From: Tore Anderson [mailto:tore.anderson@redpill-linpro.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 8:30 AM
To: frnkblk@iname.com
Cc: 'Martin Millnert'; 'Phil Benchoff'; ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
Subject: Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6

* Frank Bulk

> Yes, we're receiving 15169 from Cogent.

Hi Frank,

In Oslo we don't:

tore@cr2> show route aspath-regex 174.*15169.* table inet6.0 all

inet6.0: 5570 destinations, 11272 routes (5569 active, 0 holddown, 1 hidden)

tore@cr2>

Traceroutes from all PoPs available at
<http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass> to www.google.com's
IPv6 address all result in a !H error. Where do you take transit from
them from?

I opened a ticket with them about it and so far I've only gotten a
boiler-plate answer that does not at all shed any light on the
situation, considering that they used to carry those routes before.

So either there's some kind of technical problem going on, or one
network depeered the other. Considering that Cogent seems unable or
unwilling to give a clear answer, I have my suspicions...

* eu-support@cogentco.com

> You have enquired with Cogent Support about missing routes in the
> IPv6 routing table provided to you by Cogent as part of your Internet
> service. We understand your concerns and would like to provide you
> with additional information on the matter.
>
> As you know, the Internet is made up of tens of thousands of networks
> which must be interconnected, either by means of direct peering
> between individual networks, or by connection to upstream transit
> providers. For IPv4 routes, the Internet follows these
> interconnection rules and enables transit providers (such as Cogent)
> to provide a full global IPv4 routing table to their customers. IPv6
> interconnection, on the other hand, has not yet reached this level of
> maturity.
>
> Like other providers, Cogent is actively expanding its IPV6 routing
> table. This is not always easy due to the fact that certain networks
> do not announce the IPV6 routes of their customers to their upstream
> providers. Hence such IPv6 routes are not visible to the entire
> Internet. As a result, no network in the world can claim to provide
> a full global routing table to its customers. Cogent remains
> confident that IPv6 interconnection will gradually attain the same
> level of maturity as IPV4. In the mean time, Cogent is continuously
> working on improving global IPv6 connectivity by adding new IPv6
> routes to its network on a daily basis and collaborating with the
> Internet carriers' community to achieve ubiquitous IPv6 coverage
>
> Cogent Support remains at your disposal for any subsequent questions
> you may have.

--
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Le 11-05-04 13:15, Frank Bulk a écrit :
> I misinterpreted our upstream networking guy's response -- we get 15169 via Sprint. So that's consistent with your experience.
>
> Any way to find out when Google de-peered with Cogent?

my understanding is that they never peered.

marc.

> I'm sure Renesys has that kind of data.
>
> Frank
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tore Anderson [mailto:tore.anderson@redpill-linpro.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 8:30 AM
> To: frnkblk@iname.com
> Cc: 'Martin Millnert'; 'Phil Benchoff'; ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
> Subject: Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6
>
> * Frank Bulk
>
>> Yes, we're receiving 15169 from Cogent.
>
> Hi Frank,
>
> In Oslo we don't:
>
> tore@cr2> show route aspath-regex 174.*15169.* table inet6.0 all
>
> inet6.0: 5570 destinations, 11272 routes (5569 active, 0 holddown, 1 hidden)
>
> tore@cr2>
>
> Traceroutes from all PoPs available at
> <http://www.cogentco.com/en/network/looking-glass> to www.google.com's
> IPv6 address all result in a !H error. Where do you take transit from
> them from?
>
> I opened a ticket with them about it and so far I've only gotten a
> boiler-plate answer that does not at all shed any light on the
> situation, considering that they used to carry those routes before.
>
> So either there's some kind of technical problem going on, or one
> network depeered the other. Considering that Cogent seems unable or
> unwilling to give a clear answer, I have my suspicions...
>
> * eu-support@cogentco.com
>
>> You have enquired with Cogent Support about missing routes in the
>> IPv6 routing table provided to you by Cogent as part of your Internet
>> service. We understand your concerns and would like to provide you
>> with additional information on the matter.
>>
>> As you know, the Internet is made up of tens of thousands of networks
>> which must be interconnected, either by means of direct peering
>> between individual networks, or by connection to upstream transit
>> providers. For IPv4 routes, the Internet follows these
>> interconnection rules and enables transit providers (such as Cogent)
>> to provide a full global IPv4 routing table to their customers. IPv6
>> interconnection, on the other hand, has not yet reached this level of
>> maturity.
>>
>> Like other providers, Cogent is actively expanding its IPV6 routing
>> table. This is not always easy due to the fact that certain networks
>> do not announce the IPV6 routes of their customers to their upstream
>> providers. Hence such IPv6 routes are not visible to the entire
>> Internet. As a result, no network in the world can claim to provide
>> a full global routing table to its customers. Cogent remains
>> confident that IPv6 interconnection will gradually attain the same
>> level of maturity as IPV4. In the mean time, Cogent is continuously
>> working on improving global IPv6 connectivity by adding new IPv6
>> routes to its network on a daily basis and collaborating with the
>> Internet carriers' community to achieve ubiquitous IPv6 coverage
>>
>> Cogent Support remains at your disposal for any subsequent questions
>> you may have.
>


--
=========
IETF81 Quebec city: http://ietf81.ca
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley. http://www.ipv6book.ca
Stun/Turn server for VoIP NAT-FW traversal: http://numb.viagenie.ca
DTN Implementation: http://postellation.viagenie.ca
NAT64-DNS64 Opensource: http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
Space Assigned Number Authority: http://sanaregistry.org
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 1:05 PM, David Freedman
<david.freedman@uk.clara.net> wrote:
> Well, that will won't bode well for single homed Cogent customers on World
> IPv6 day, Even if Cogent can send the ICMPv6 unreachable and the customer
> doesn't filter it on the way back, I wonder how many stacks will notice
> and provide the user a good experience with Google page loads.

If somebody could work up an accurate list of these customers, we'd be
happy to raise issue from a commercial prospective. I don't think
Cogent's management fully understands the absurdity of the
situation...

-a
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

> Well, that will won't bode well for single homed Cogent customers on World
> IPv6 day, Even if Cogent can send the ICMPv6 unreachable and the customer
> doesn't filter it on the way back, I wonder how many stacks will notice
> and provide the user a good experience with Google page loads.
>
If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway on
World IPv6 day. Cogent has only about 70% of all IPv6 routes available.
We talked about this to them one day and we got the same boilerplate
answer as Tore Anderson got on his request.

Since then we have written off Cogent as a good Transit partner and are
investigating better sollutions in our area. We have a second transit
(Equinix / Virtu (AS16243)) and they have a full table, so we are not
really in trouble at the moment.

Jan Hugo Prins
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On 5/4/11 1:33 PM, Jan Hugo Prins wrote:

> If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway on
> World IPv6 day.

This can be reduced to...

If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway.

--
Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay@impulse.net
Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/
Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

> If somebody could work up an accurate list of these customers, we'd be
> happy to raise issue from a commercial prospective. I don't think
> Cogent's management fully understands the absurdity of the
> situation...
The problem with Cogent is that they think they are a Tier 1 transit
provider and in their opinion they only want to peer with other Tier 1
transit providers. For the same reason they don't peer with HE, which
results in the low number of IPv6 routes in their routing table.

They also think that they can strong-arm themselves into a position
where everyone accepts them to be Tier 1. I'm wandering when everyone
drops Cogent transit in favour of more decent transit providers. In
every big peering dispute in the last couple of years Cogent was one of
the parties involved as far as I know.

Jan Hugo Prins
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

> This can be reduced to...
>
> If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway.
I stand corrected ;-)

Jan Hugo
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On 5/4/11 1:38 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
> On 5/4/11 1:33 PM, Jan Hugo Prins wrote:
>
>> If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway on
>> World IPv6 day.
>
> This can be reduced to...
>
> If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway.

And further reduced to...

If you are singlehomed you will have a problem anyway.

--
--
Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Engineering - jay@impulse.net
Impulse Internet Service - http://www.impulse.net/
Your local telephone and internet company - 805 884-6323 - WB6RDV
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On May 4, 2011, at 4:39 PM, Jan Hugo Prins wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> If somebody could work up an accurate list of these customers, we'd be
>> happy to raise issue from a commercial prospective. I don't think
>> Cogent's management fully understands the absurdity of the
>> situation...
> The problem with Cogent is that they think they are a Tier 1 transit
> provider and in their opinion they only want to peer with other Tier 1
> transit providers. For the same reason they don't peer with HE, which
> results in the low number of IPv6 routes in their routing table.
>
> They also think that they can strong-arm themselves into a position
> where everyone accepts them to be Tier 1. I'm wandering when everyone
> drops Cogent transit in favour of more decent transit providers. In
> every big peering dispute in the last couple of years Cogent was one of
> the parties involved as far as I know.

I don't think anything along these lines is going to go away.

It does seem that a number of providers are treating IPv6 interconnection differently than IPv4 and I think this will only serve to cripple growth of IPv6 in the short term.

I do hope that each content provider/carrier/network goes ahead and enables IPv6 on the same links as "ip classic", er IPv4 with the same peering policy in the short term. Or at least for the week before and week after come June.

I'm looking forward to an increased amount of traffic on networks for that day.

- Jared
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
> The problem with Cogent is that they think they are a Tier 1 transit
> provider and in their opinion they only want to peer with other Tier 1
> transit providers. For the same reason they don't peer with HE, which
> results in the low number of IPv6 routes in their routing table.

That's OK, Cogent like to play tier 1

They depeered us too which is fine but I wish they'd stop bugging us to
now buy their transit (if you want to sell people stuff it's best
not to alienate them).

> They also think that they can strong-arm themselves into a position
> where everyone accepts them to be Tier 1.

HE are doing that for v6 hoping being there early makes them tier 1 by
default, a nice try but really can't complain if some disagree.

Ordinarily I'd wish them both a happy tier 0.5 ness but v6 day isn't
the time to be breaking users

brandon
Re: Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 01:41:58PM -0700, Jay Hennigan wrote:
> On 5/4/11 1:38 PM, Jay Hennigan wrote:
> > If you are singlehomed through Cogent you will have a problem anyway.
>
> And further reduced to...
>
> If you are singlehomed you will have a problem anyway.

Actually, with a decent upstream, I can't agree to that - an upstream
worth its money will ensure that they see *all* networks, even if that
means "paying someone for transit".

After all, there's normal end users out there that have no choice but
be single-homed.

Gert, quite happy with his current upstreams
--
did you enable IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
Re: [v6OPS] Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 12:15:49PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote:
> I misinterpreted our upstream networking guy's response -- we get 15169 via Sprint. So that's consistent with your experience.
>
> Any way to find out when Google de-peered with Cogent? I'm sure Renesys has that kind of data.
>
> Frank

Thursday, 28 April at about 1600GMT is when our traffic switched back
to I2. We turned up the peering on Tuesday at about the same time, so
the routes were there then. I don't know exactly what the path was,
but it was via Cogent.

So far as I know, the status of our trouble ticket is still "known issue,
no ETR."

Phil
Re: [v6OPS] Cogent and Google no longer peered via IPv6 [ In reply to ]
On 06/05/2011 16:11, 'Phil Benchoff' wrote:
> On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 12:15:49PM -0500, Frank Bulk wrote:
>> Any way to find out when Google de-peered with Cogent? I'm sure Renesys has that kind of data.
> Thursday, 28 April at about 1600GMT is when our traffic switched back
> to I2.

That's also what shows RIS:
http://www.ris.ripe.net/mt/asinuse-result.html?as=15169&rrc_id=1000&interval=3&outype=html&submit=Search

Type Neighbor AS # ASpaths Av. Path Length # Origins Last
seen First Seen Last Seen ASpath
Left 174 136 4 11 2011-04-28 16:25:47 UTC 2010-04-28 08:00:00
UTC 41495 174 15169

Regards,

--
Mathieu Goessens,
IRISA, Campus de Beaulieu, 35042 Rennes cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0) 2 99 84 71 00, Fax: +33 (0) 2 99 84 71 71