Mailing List Archive

Wifi
Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two
HD episodes at the same time?
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Jim Abernathy
jfabernathy@gmail.com



> On Jan 25, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Daryl McDonald <darylangela@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12 foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two HD episodes at the same time?

Well, I’ll tell you my observations and opinions. Most of my recordings are HD. They are 4-8GB/hour. That’s 9-18Mb/sec per recording. So well within the limit of WiFi. Assuming 11n or 11ac. All my Mythtv FE are 11n and 1 has trouble with WiFi occasionally because the FE is on one end of the house and the WiFi AP is on the 3rd floor. Maybe upgrading to 11ac might help that because my WiFi AP is new and has 11ac with a lot of the newer features to get data up to 600Mb/s. My FireTV is in the same room at the end of the house uses WiFi 11ac and has no issues.

I fish a lot of Cat 6 wires through my house. It’s a lot easier than some think. I’ve learn a lot from Telco, alarm, and stereo installers. First get a set of telco fishing poles that are fiber glass with metal couplings so you can put together 30’ of poles. These bend and snap back straight. You can use them to fish between drywall and heating ducts, etc.

And don’t forget drywall is easily repaired by amateurs. You can cut a rectangle hole big enough for your hand, fish the cable and then repair it with the original piece of drywall, a piece of cardboard and some speckling.

I would put my WiFi AP and HDHR close to each other so the HDHR is cat5/6 connected to the AP and I’d fish RG6 from the antenna/cable outlet back to the HDHR.

IMHO anyway.

Jim A

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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On 25/01/18 14:20, Daryl McDonald wrote:
> Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
> foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
> extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
> dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
> walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording
> two HD episodes at the same time?

I don't have an HDHR so can't comment on its performance over wifi.

If you end up using wifi for this use case to ensure doing so over 5GHz
wifi rather than 2.4GHz. There's a lot more capacity in the 5GHz band so
you are much more likely to be "alone" in the chosen channel, rather
than having to share the airwaves with other users.
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On 01/25/2018 08:20 AM, Daryl McDonald wrote:
> Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a
> 12 foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
> extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
> dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
> walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording
> two HD episodes at the same time?
I looked into wireless USB devices about a year ago and I found that
there were no 5 GHz devices that had Linux support, apart from the ones
built into laptops. This may have changed.

You may be able to use wifi for the frontend to backend communications
but I would not use it for connecting the tuner to the backend.

One HD recording would use up to 20 mbps. It could be less. However if
you are using a digital tuner without cable card you would be receiving
all channels on that frequency, and MythTV would filter out the ones it
needs. That would be a much higher bit rate, probably 3 times as much.

When I tested my 100 mbps wireless network it was actually able to
transmit 16 mbps. The actual vs advertized speed seem to be very
different. Also the speed will vary depending on whether other people in
your neighborhood are using wifi.

Powerline network gives me speeds of around 50 mbps but it has the
problem that from time to time it disconnects itself and takes about a
minute to recover. This is irritating for a frontend but probably fatal
for a backend.

If you have coaxial cable in the wall for cable tv you can easily get
100 mbps with an appropriate adapter. This is what I am doing. I use
"DIRECTV Broadband DECA Ethernet to Coax Adapter", at $20 for two (from
Amazon). This is an excellent value and they give consistently 100 mbps
with no interruptions.

Peter
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:20:07 -0500, you wrote:

>Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
>foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
>extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
>dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
>walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two
>HD episodes at the same time?

A basic rule of thumb seems to be that 802.11n is insufficient for
playback of HD recordings. You want 802.11ac on 5 GHz for it to be
reliable. Using WiFi for recording from a tuner is not recommended.
Tuners can work by selecting out the streams for a channel at the
tuner and only sending the data for one channel. I would expect that
networked tuners would normally do that. But when you are doing
scanning for channels, if the tuner need to send the entire multiplex
at once to the PC, then I would not expect that to work as the
bandwidth on WiFi will be way too small. Also, WiFi is not reliable -
there are often small disruptions. When playing back a recording or
playing a video from the Internet, that will normally only cause a
short pause and playback will recover. But disruptions like that in
the middle of a recording have the potential to completely stop the
recording at that point, or make the rest of the recording into random
data.

Another option you should consider if you really are unable to get
cable connections is using an Ethernet over powerline connection.
Depending on your wiring, these normally (if they work) provide a
rather higher throughput than WiFi and are normally reliable, unless
someone plugs a new device into the wrong plug and causes
interference.

But I really would recommend using cable if at all possible. See if
you can find a professional to give you an assessment of how much it
would cost - frequently they can see ways of doing things that you
will not.
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but further
contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5. One more
question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on the same coax,
before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they must be on separate
lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.

On Jan 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Stephen Worthington" <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz>
wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:20:07 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
> >foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
> >extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
> >dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
> >walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two
> >HD episodes at the same time?
>
> A basic rule of thumb seems to be that 802.11n is insufficient for
> playback of HD recordings. You want 802.11ac on 5 GHz for it to be
> reliable. Using WiFi for recording from a tuner is not recommended.
> Tuners can work by selecting out the streams for a channel at the
> tuner and only sending the data for one channel. I would expect that
> networked tuners would normally do that. But when you are doing
> scanning for channels, if the tuner need to send the entire multiplex
> at once to the PC, then I would not expect that to work as the
> bandwidth on WiFi will be way too small. Also, WiFi is not reliable -
> there are often small disruptions. When playing back a recording or
> playing a video from the Internet, that will normally only cause a
> short pause and playback will recover. But disruptions like that in
> the middle of a recording have the potential to completely stop the
> recording at that point, or make the rest of the recording into random
> data.
>
> Another option you should consider if you really are unable to get
> cable connections is using an Ethernet over powerline connection.
> Depending on your wiring, these normally (if they work) provide a
> rather higher throughput than WiFi and are normally reliable, unless
> someone plugs a new device into the wrong plug and causes
> interference.
>
> But I really would recommend using cable if at all possible. See if
> you can find a professional to give you an assessment of how much it
> would cost - frequently they can see ways of doing things that you
> will not.
> _______________________________________________
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> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
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> http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
>
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On Jan 26, 2018 7:59 AM, "Daryl McDonald" <darylangela@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but further
contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5. One more
question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on the same coax,
before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they must be on separate
lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.

On Jan 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Stephen Worthington" <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz>
wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:20:07 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
> >foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
> >extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
> >dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
> >walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two
> >HD episodes at the same time?
>
> A basic rule of thumb seems to be that 802.11n is insufficient for
> playback of HD recordings. You want 802.11ac on 5 GHz for it to be
> reliable. Using WiFi for recording from a tuner is not recommended.
> Tuners can work by selecting out the streams for a channel at the
> tuner and only sending the data for one channel. I would expect that
> networked tuners would normally do that. But when you are doing
> scanning for channels, if the tuner need to send the entire multiplex
> at once to the PC, then I would not expect that to work as the
> bandwidth on WiFi will be way too small. Also, WiFi is not reliable -
> there are often small disruptions. When playing back a recording or
> playing a video from the Internet, that will normally only cause a
> short pause and playback will recover. But disruptions like that in
> the middle of a recording have the potential to completely stop the
> recording at that point, or make the rest of the recording into random
> data.
>
> Another option you should consider if you really are unable to get
> cable connections is using an Ethernet over powerline connection.
> Depending on your wiring, these normally (if they work) provide a
> rather higher throughput than WiFi and are normally reliable, unless
> someone plugs a new device into the wrong plug and causes
> interference.
>
> But I really would recommend using cable if at all possible. See if
> you can find a professional to give you an assessment of how much it
> would cost - frequently they can see ways of doing things that you
> will not.
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org


Sorry for the top post, been a while.


>
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Tell her to stay in the Kitchen where she belongs then she doesn't
have to see them?




I'll get my coat..........




Have a good weekend everyone.

On 26 January 2018 at 12:59, Daryl McDonald <darylangela@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but further
> contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5. One more
> question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on the same coax,
> before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they must be on separate
> lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.
>
> On Jan 25, 2018 8:18 PM, "Stephen Worthington" <stephen_agent@jsw.gen.nz>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Jan 2018 08:20:07 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> >Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a 12
>> >foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a WiFi
>> >extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual band USB
>> >dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require fishing thru
>> >walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the HDHR is recording two
>> >HD episodes at the same time?
>>
>> A basic rule of thumb seems to be that 802.11n is insufficient for
>> playback of HD recordings. You want 802.11ac on 5 GHz for it to be
>> reliable. Using WiFi for recording from a tuner is not recommended.
>> Tuners can work by selecting out the streams for a channel at the
>> tuner and only sending the data for one channel. I would expect that
>> networked tuners would normally do that. But when you are doing
>> scanning for channels, if the tuner need to send the entire multiplex
>> at once to the PC, then I would not expect that to work as the
>> bandwidth on WiFi will be way too small. Also, WiFi is not reliable -
>> there are often small disruptions. When playing back a recording or
>> playing a video from the Internet, that will normally only cause a
>> short pause and playback will recover. But disruptions like that in
>> the middle of a recording have the potential to completely stop the
>> recording at that point, or make the rest of the recording into random
>> data.
>>
>> Another option you should consider if you really are unable to get
>> cable connections is using an Ethernet over powerline connection.
>> Depending on your wiring, these normally (if they work) provide a
>> rather higher throughput than WiFi and are normally reliable, unless
>> someone plugs a new device into the wrong plug and causes
>> interference.
>>
>> But I really would recommend using cable if at all possible. See if
>> you can find a professional to give you an assessment of how much it
>> would cost - frequently they can see ways of doing things that you
>> will not.
>> _______________________________________________
>> mythtv-users mailing list
>> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
>> http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>> http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
>> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
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>
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Daryl McDonald <darylangela@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but further contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5. One more question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on the same coax, before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they must be on separate lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.
>

If you don’t think you can fish the cat5/6 there are small data cable conduit solutions available. I found one thru google that would work for me. I’d put it right at the top of the baseboard since the color is the same as my wall, close anyway. Mount vertical in corners. Horizontal at floor or ceiling level.

http://www1.panduit.com/en/product/LD5EI6-A <http://www1.panduit.com/en/product/LD5EI6-A>

Jim A
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On 01/26/2018 07:59 AM, Daryl McDonald wrote:
> Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but
> further contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5.
> One more question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on
> the same coax, before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they
> must be on separate lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.
>
If you have an antenna that will have to be a separate coax from the
cable company's signal, for many reasons. If you are getting internet
and tv from the cable company I would expect them to be on one coax.

Peter
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Peter Bennett <pb.mythtv@gmail.com> writes:

> On 01/25/2018 08:20 AM, Daryl McDonald wrote:
>> Greetings Mtyhizens, my recent move is requiring using WiFi within a
>> 12 foot proximity. I use two internal cards and one HDHR. Would a
>> WiFi extender kit (ac to cat5) be any better than a 300 mbps dual
>> band USB dongle? Hard wiring would create a trip hazard or require
>> fishing thru walls and ceiling. How much data is moving when the
>> HDHR is recording two HD episodes at the same time?
> I looked into wireless USB devices about a year ago and I found that
> there were no 5 GHz devices that had Linux support, apart from the
> ones built into laptops. This may have changed.
>
> You may be able to use wifi for the frontend to backend communications
> but I would not use it for connecting the tuner to the backend.
>
> One HD recording would use up to 20 mbps. It could be less. However if
> you are using a digital tuner without cable card you would be
> receiving all channels on that frequency, and MythTV would filter out
> the ones it needs. That would be a much higher bit rate, probably 3
> times as much.
>
> When I tested my 100 mbps wireless network it was actually able to
> transmit 16 mbps. The actual vs advertized speed seem to be very
> different. Also the speed will vary depending on whether other people
> in your neighborhood are using wifi.
>
> Powerline network gives me speeds of around 50 mbps but it has the
> problem that from time to time it disconnects itself and takes about a
> minute to recover. This is irritating for a frontend but probably
> fatal for a backend.

Besides their unreliability, powerline adapters are really
expensive. Maybe they have improved since I bought mine a few years ago,
but I found that even with a direct connection between 2 outlets, I
would routinely (~weekly) get interrupts that took manual intervention
to correct.


>
> If you have coaxial cable in the wall for cable tv you can easily get
> 100 mbps with an appropriate adapter. This is what I am doing. I use
> "DIRECTV Broadband DECA Ethernet to Coax Adapter", at $20 for two
> (from Amazon). This is an excellent value and they give consistently
> 100 mbps with no interruptions.

These adpaters are great and much superior to the powerline
adapters. They sometimes go on sale for much less. I got a half-dozen
for $2/ea a couple years ago.

Eventually, though, I upgraded the important connections to
cat5e/6. This included my BE/FE connections. The difference in speed
between the coax/DECA adapter vs. cat5e/6 was noticeable. Playback was
fine in both cases, but seeking, loading the recording information,
etc. were noticeably slower over coax/DECA.

I did leave the HDHR ota tuner on a coax/DECA connection to the BE. It
could easily handle the bandwidth requirements for that tuner.

Leo

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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:

> Besides their unreliability, powerline adapters are really
> expensive.

In more ways than just cash terms ...
See https://www.ban-plt.org.uk

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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On Jan 26, 2018 5:39 PM, "Simon Hobson" <linux@thehobsons.co.uk> wrote:

Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:

> Besides their unreliability, powerline adapters are really
> expensive.

In more ways than just cash terms ...
See https://www.ban-plt.org.uk

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Thanks again everyone, I thought I remembered some distaste for a.c.
extenders, good to get confirmation before shelling my cash. I will
continue with wired
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 2018-01-26 at 19:21 -0500, Daryl McDonald wrote:
> On Jan 26, 2018 5:39 PM, "Simon Hobson" <linux@thehobsons.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Besides their unreliability, powerline adapters are really
> >
> > > expensive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In more ways than just cash terms ...
> >
> > See https://www.ban-plt.org.uk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > mythtv-users mailing list
> >
> > mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> >
> > http://lists.mythtv.org/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
> >
> > http://wiki.mythtv.org/Mailing_List_etiquette
> >
> > MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
>
> Thanks again everyone, I thought I remembered some distaste for a.c.
> extenders, good to get confirmation before shelling my cash. I will
> continue with wired
>
>
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fwiw, i run a wifi bridge from my attenna (and 4 tuner hdhomerun) to my
router and then hardwire to computer running myth backend. the bridge
runs at highest ac rate. i picked up an inexepensive netgear ac router
w/atheros chipset that could take openwrt. with all four tuners
transferring hd data i have no errors. i believe that if you did this
it would work. there is a tutorial to set up openwrt to act as a bridge
on the net. putting a wifi adapter in a usb on the computer probably
would not be reliable. i am in a multi unit dwelling with plenty of
other networks but on 5g band at high speed i have zero issues and have
run like this quite a long time
Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
---- On Fri, 26 Jan 2018 13:30:46 +0000 James Abernathy <jfabernathy@gmail.com> wrote ----
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Daryl McDonald <darylangela@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks to all respondents, the wife hates wires everywhere, but further contemplation has yielded an inconspicuous route for the cat5. One more question, my former ISP used to supply cable and internet on the same coax, before it was encrypted, why am I being told that they must be on separate lines in the Condo? FTA antenna and internet, I mean.
>
> If you don’t think you can fish the cat5/6 there are small data cable conduit solutions available. I found one thru google that would work for me. I’d put it right at the top of the baseboard since the color is the same as my wall, close anyway. Mount vertical in corners. Horizontal at floor or ceiling level.
> http://www1.panduit.com/en/product/LD5EI6-A
> Jim A
>
> _______________________________________________
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> MythTV Forums: https://forum.mythtv.org
>
most of my house is wired using that mini trunking stuff for the solid wall runs. works really well and essentially invisible.

i've tried FE's on wifi (rpi3) to a linksys lap N600 (soho 2.4&5ghz 600mbit AP) and it was useless for HD. SD was fine and connectivity was stable just lacked throughput. the general performance of an FE over wifi is noticably slower. just takes longer for things to happen like the initial start of playback.
seeking was also noticably slower and made it essentially useless.

wifi is fine for internet use. anything else then cable it.

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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk> writes:

> Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:
>
>> Besides their unreliability, powerline adapters are really
>> expensive.
>
> In more ways than just cash terms ...
> See https://www.ban-plt.org.uk

In fairness, Simon, when I lived in the UK, I noticed RF interference in
ways that just do not occur in North America.

I couldn't pass my mobile phone (a high-end Nokia) within 1.5m of my FM
radio, due to the loud and awful interference. That same phone did not
generate that interference on a similar FM radio in the US.

I won't speculate on the source of the difference, I'm sure there are
others on the list better qualified.

Leo
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:

> In fairness, Simon, when I lived in the UK, I noticed RF interference in
> ways that just do not occur in North America.
>
> I couldn't pass my mobile phone (a high-end Nokia) within 1.5m of my FM
> radio, due to the loud and awful interference. That same phone did not
> generate that interference on a similar FM radio in the US.
>
> I won't speculate on the source of the difference, I'm sure there are
> others on the list better qualified.

What type of network were/are you on in the US ?

Over here we have used GSM for quite a while - which is a digital signal that causes quite distinct interference in electronic equipment (not just radio).
Analogue mobile just doesn't cause the same sort of interference. Ah, looking it up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_industry_in_the_United_States) it seems that Verizon and Sprint use CDMA - while AT&T and T-Mobile use GSM.

It's also why (unless you have an expensive multi-mode phone) you can't always switch between networks (and keep your phone) like we can over here.
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Re: Wifi [ In reply to ]
Simon Hobson <linux@thehobsons.co.uk> writes:

> Leo Butler <leo.butler@member.ams.org> wrote:
>
>> In fairness, Simon, when I lived in the UK, I noticed RF interference in
>> ways that just do not occur in North America.
>>
>> I couldn't pass my mobile phone (a high-end Nokia) within 1.5m of my FM
>> radio, due to the loud and awful interference. That same phone did not
>> generate that interference on a similar FM radio in the US.
>>
>> I won't speculate on the source of the difference, I'm sure there are
>> others on the list better qualified.
>
> What type of network were/are you on in the US ?
>
> Over here we have used GSM for quite a while - which is a digital signal that causes quite distinct interference in electronic equipment (not just radio).
> Analogue mobile just doesn't cause the same sort of interference. Ah,
> looking it up
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_industry_in_the_United_States)
> it seems that Verizon and Sprint use CDMA - while AT&T and T-Mobile
> use GSM.

Well, if that wiki is correct, then it was GSM in both the UK and US.

>
> It's also why (unless you have an expensive multi-mode phone) you can't always switch between networks (and keep your phone) like we can over here.

Yeah, it was a cold-water bath when I saw how uncompetitive the US (and
worse, Canadian) cell-phone markets are in comparison to the
UK. Equipment/standards shenanigans are only part of it.

Leo
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