Mailing List Archive

XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25
We'd like to warn users that we are planning to drop XvMC and libmpeg2
decoding support from forthcoming MythTV releases. MythTV 0.25 will be
the first release without these features, so you still have several
months to upgrade hardware if you wish to continue running the latest
MythTV releases. Of course the newly released 0.24 will remain
available if either XvMC or libmpeg2 are important to you.
Why are we doing this?

XvMC - The primary reason is that the XvMC code is very hard to
maintain. It requires a lot special handling and does not support the
features which many of our other video rendering methods provide. Far
superior alternative hardware decoders such as Nvidia's VDPAU are now
supported. Crystal HD, ATI and Intel support are also on the MythTV
roadmap.

libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.

Both - Additionally, the need for both features is largely gone. Even
the lowest cost CPUs which have been available in recent years can
easily manage playback of Standard and High-Definition mpeg2. Low
power CPUs such Intel's atom are usually supplied with Nvidia's ION
platform or can be used with discrete hardware decoding solutions such
as Crystal HD.

We believe that leaving these features behind will allow us to focus
our time more productively, making the improvements and adding the
features that a majority of users want to see.

N.B At some point in time, beyond 0.25, we'd like to drop XVideo
support in favour of OpenGL rendering. There will be more on that
subject when we have finalised our plans. Rest assured that we are
considering embedded platforms and work on supporting OpenGL ES is
already underway.

Robert
MythTV
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Am 02.12.2010 20:05, schrieb Robert McNamara:
> We'd like to warn users that we are planning to drop XvMC and libmpeg2

Thanks for these heads up.

> N.B At some point in time, beyond 0.25, we'd like to drop XVideo
> support in favour of OpenGL rendering. There will be more on that
> subject when we have finalised our plans. Rest assured that we are
> considering embedded platforms and work on supporting OpenGL ES is
> already underway.

Let's hope that by that time the OSS radeon OpenGL support has improved.
Currently, on r600 radeon hw, there is no alternative to using Xv. It
yields excellent performance, and completely stutter-free and tear-free
rendering. OSS OpenGL is not as good. As I said, let's hope this changes
so there can be a smooth transition.

>
> Robert
> MythTV
> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Thursday, December 02, 2010 12:05:44 pm Robert McNamara wrote:
> We'd like to warn users that we are planning to drop XvMC and
> libmpeg2 decoding support from forthcoming MythTV releases. MythTV
> 0.25 will be the first release without these features, so you still
> have several months to upgrade hardware if you wish to continue
> running the latest MythTV releases. Of course the newly released
> 0.24 will remain available if either XvMC or libmpeg2 are important
> to you.
> Why are we doing this?
>
> XvMC - The primary reason is that the XvMC code is very hard to
> maintain. It requires a lot special handling and does not support the
> features which many of our other video rendering methods provide. Far
> superior alternative hardware decoders such as Nvidia's VDPAU are now
> supported. Crystal HD, ATI and Intel support are also on the MythTV
> roadmap.
>
> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
> back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
> advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
> complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.
>
> Both - Additionally, the need for both features is largely gone. Even
> the lowest cost CPUs which have been available in recent years can
> easily manage playback of Standard and High-Definition mpeg2. Low
> power CPUs such Intel's atom are usually supplied with Nvidia's ION
> platform or can be used with discrete hardware decoding solutions
> such as Crystal HD.
>
> We believe that leaving these features behind will allow us to focus
> our time more productively, making the improvements and adding the
> features that a majority of users want to see.
>
> N.B At some point in time, beyond 0.25, we'd like to drop XVideo
> support in favour of OpenGL rendering. There will be more on that
> subject when we have finalised our plans. Rest assured that we are
> considering embedded platforms and work on supporting OpenGL ES is
> already underway.

These moves are quite understandable.

The problem with VDPAU is with older AGP motherboards, for which the
only alternative to XvMC for hardware acceleration is to use a PCI card
supporting VDPAU, but in that case you are screwed if you have a codec
not supported by VDPAU, but of course XvMC only helps with MPEG2 in any
case,

CrystalHD support would be great (since I own a couple of the modules).

I've seen a lot of Atom platforms with Intel graphics, not ION, that
problem has caused me to pass up several hardware options. Being able to
use Intel graphics hardware would nice, especially as a lot of laptops
use it.

But, as I said, your moves make sense, and the long warning time is
greatly appreciated. I also understand that trying to continue to
support "legacy" hardware will delay other improvements to Myth in
general.

Thanks again for the heads up.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Robert,

Glad I just upgraded from a 6200 to 430 for vdpau :-) Although if I would have
still been running my AGP system HD would have been skippy without XVMC. But it
also had negatives like the slow grey OSD.

But what has taken my interest is your comment about supporting opengl-es. I
have access to very ideal hardware for this target being the pandora.
Who/what/where can i go to get more information on the development of this
feature? Do you know what ES version is being targeted?

Scott




________________________________
From: Robert McNamara <robert.mcnamara@gmail.com>
To: Discussion about mythtv <mythtv-users@mythtv.org>
Sent: Thu, December 2, 2010 2:05:44 PM
Subject: [mythtv-users] XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25

We'd like to warn users that we are planning to drop XvMC and libmpeg2
decoding support from forthcoming MythTV releases. MythTV 0.25 will be
the first release without these features, so you still have several
months to upgrade hardware if you wish to continue running the latest
MythTV releases. Of course the newly released 0.24 will remain
available if either XvMC or libmpeg2 are important to you.
Why are we doing this?

XvMC - The primary reason is that the XvMC code is very hard to
maintain. It requires a lot special handling and does not support the
features which many of our other video rendering methods provide. Far
superior alternative hardware decoders such as Nvidia's VDPAU are now
supported. Crystal HD, ATI and Intel support are also on the MythTV
roadmap.

libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.

Both - Additionally, the need for both features is largely gone. Even
the lowest cost CPUs which have been available in recent years can
easily manage playback of Standard and High-Definition mpeg2. Low
power CPUs such Intel's atom are usually supplied with Nvidia's ION
platform or can be used with discrete hardware decoding solutions such
as Crystal HD.

We believe that leaving these features behind will allow us to focus
our time more productively, making the improvements and adding the
features that a majority of users want to see.

N.B At some point in time, beyond 0.25, we'd like to drop XVideo
support in favour of OpenGL rendering. There will be more on that
subject when we have finalised our plans. Rest assured that we are
considering embedded platforms and work on supporting OpenGL ES is
already underway.

Robert
MythTV
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Brian Wood <beww@beww.org> wrote:
> The problem with VDPAU is with older AGP motherboards, for which the
> only alternative to XvMC for hardware acceleration is to use a PCI card
> supporting VDPAU, but in that case you are screwed if you have a codec
> not supported by VDPAU, but of course XvMC only helps with MPEG2 in any
> case,
>
> CrystalHD support would be great (since I own a couple of the modules).
>
> I've seen a lot of Atom platforms with Intel graphics, not ION, that
> problem has caused me to pass up several hardware options. Being able to
> use Intel graphics hardware would nice, especially as a lot of laptops
> use it.
>
> But, as I said, your moves make sense, and the long warning time is
> greatly appreciated. I also understand that trying to continue to
> support "legacy" hardware will delay other improvements to Myth in
> general.
>
> Thanks again for the heads up.

Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.

Since then, I've recently purchased 3 ION systems, two for my house
and one for my parents. All three cost me $200(US$ in the US) each and
all three play back my HDPVR 1080i content with Temporal 2x perfectly.
I've noticed the price on the Atom330 based ION's have dropped
considerably since the ION2 platform was released. Actually, the one
my parents got was a single core, for $218US (taxes), the two I got
later, for my house, are dual core (330) and came in slightly under
$200US. Of course, you have to add your own remote control device, but
I figure as an upgrade path those are already being used, and can be
had for under $20US as well

Hopefully VA-API will be supported soon in some fashion and this will
allow the intel graphics hardware to accelerate playback, especially
on laptops that have it and no ability to support the CrystalHD
miniPCI devices.


--
Steve
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User:Steveadeff
Before you ask, read the FAQ!
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
then search the Wiki, and this list,
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote:

>
> Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
> using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
> CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.
>
> Since then, I've recently purchased 3 ION systems, two for my house
> and one for my parents. All three cost me $200(US$ in the US) each
> and all three play back my HDPVR 1080i content with Temporal 2x
> perfectly. I've noticed the price on the Atom330 based ION's have
> dropped considerably since the ION2 platform was released. Actually,
> the one my parents got was a single core, for $218US (taxes), the
> two I got later, for my house, are dual core (330) and came in
> slightly under $200US. Of course, you have to add your own remote
> control device, but I figure as an upgrade path those are already
> being used, and can be had for under $20US as well
>
> Hopefully VA-API will be supported soon in some fashion and this will
> allow the intel graphics hardware to accelerate playback, especially
> on laptops that have it and no ability to support the CrystalHD
> miniPCI devices.

I suspect many folks are like me, I keep pretty up to date with the main
backend machine, but I still have a couple of AGP boxes in use as
frontends. I've replaced one of them with a Revo (very happy with that),
but I don't want to spend $400 to make everything VDPAU capable right
now.

Have you noticed any advantages to dual-core Atoms for frontend use? I
figure if you're not doing commflagging or transcoding a single core is
enough, unless of course you run into something the ION can't help with.

Now that Flash can be helped by VDPAU, that situation is a lot better.

I'd really like to see Intel graphics become usable, I've passed on a
few hardware options because they have Intel GPUs. Making old laptops,
perhaps with broken screens, become usable frontends would be nice, only
the newest ones seem to have mini-PCI slots for a CrystalHD module.




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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
> back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
> advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
> complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.

If you remove libmpeg2 does that mean we can't playback any mpeg2
based recording - e.g. Freeview in the UK?

It seems you are removing a core feature of MythTV?

Can you explain what libmpeg2 does?

If I have an oldish machine without VDPAU does this mean I can no
longer playback any recordings?

TIA
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Brian Wood <beww@beww.org> wrote:
> On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote:
>> Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
>> using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
>> CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.
>>
>> Since then, I've recently purchased 3 ION systems, two for my house
>> and one for my parents. All three cost me $200(US$ in the US) each
>> and all three play back my HDPVR 1080i content with Temporal 2x
>> perfectly. I've noticed the price on the Atom330 based ION's have
>> dropped considerably since the ION2 platform was released. Actually,
>> the one my parents got was a single core, for $218US (taxes), the
>> two I got later, for my house, are dual core (330) and came in
>> slightly under $200US. Of course, you have to add your own remote
>> control device, but I figure as an upgrade path those are already
>> being used, and can be had for under $20US as well
>>
>> Hopefully VA-API will be supported soon in some fashion and this will
>> allow the intel graphics hardware to accelerate playback, especially
>> on laptops that have it and no ability to support the CrystalHD
>> miniPCI devices.
>
> I suspect many folks are like me, I keep pretty up to date with the main
> backend machine, but I still have a couple of AGP boxes in use as
> frontends. I've replaced one of them with a Revo (very happy with that),
> but I don't want to spend $400 to make everything VDPAU capable right
> now.
>
> Have you noticed any advantages to dual-core Atoms for frontend use? I
> figure if you're not doing commflagging or transcoding a single core is
> enough, unless of course you run into something the ION can't help with.
>
> Now that Flash can be helped by VDPAU, that situation is a lot better.
>
> I'd really like to see Intel graphics become usable, I've passed on a
> few hardware options because they have Intel GPUs. Making old laptops,
> perhaps with broken screens, become usable frontends would be nice, only
> the newest ones seem to have mini-PCI slots for a CrystalHD module.

the dual cores are peppier in the menu and loading up MythVideo and
MythMusic, not by a whole lot, but definitely noticeable.

I got the dual cores because I got the systems on sale through Newegg,
who seems to put them on sale at least twice a month. For playback,
VDPAU handles everything, but the OSD fade needs to be disabled or you
get visual stutter, with the single core getting occasional audio
stutter as well for higher bitrate streams.

I get the feeling that, by the time 0.25 comes out, you should be able
to get a 230 (single core) based ION system for even cheaper.

all my commflagging is done by my backend which is a Pentium E2160 and
plenty fast to flag a couple streams real-time. transcoding I don't
really use myth, so I can do it on my backend or my laptop.

--
Steve
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User:Steveadeff
Before you ask, read the FAQ!
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
then search the Wiki, and this list,
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Mailinglist etiquette -
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:12 PM, nospam312 <nospam312@gmail.com> wrote:
>> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
>> back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
>> advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
>> complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.
>
> If you remove libmpeg2 does that mean we can't playback any mpeg2
> based recording - e.g. Freeview in the UK?
>
> It seems you are removing a core feature of MythTV?
>
> Can you explain what libmpeg2 does?
>
> If I have an oldish machine without VDPAU does this mean I can no
> longer playback any recordings?

libmpeg2 is just a decoding library for mpeg2, it has basically been
replaced by the use of ffmpeg, but from what I understand was left in
as a just-in-case for when ffmpeg may have issues on certain user
hardware, or with certain users files.


--
Steve
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User:Steveadeff
Before you ask, read the FAQ!
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
then search the Wiki, and this list,
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Mailinglist etiquette -
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:12 PM, nospam312 wrote:

>> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
>> back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
>> advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
>> complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.
>
> If you remove libmpeg2 does that mean we can't playback any mpeg2
> based recording - e.g. Freeview in the UK?
>
> It seems you are removing a core feature of MythTV?

We're not that insane.


> Can you explain what libmpeg2 does?

Its an alternative mpeg2 decoding engine to the primary ffmpeg one.


> If I have an oldish machine without VDPAU does this mean I can no
> longer playback any recordings?

No. The ffmpeg decoding engine will continue to work just fine.


--
Jarod Wilson
jarod@wilsonet.com



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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Friday, December 03, 2010 11:17:50 am Steven Adeff wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 1:12 PM, nospam312 <nospam312@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be
> >> traced back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as
> >> possible and the advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the
> >> negatives. Like XvMC, it complicates the code in ways that make
> >> it harder to maintain.
> >
> > If you remove libmpeg2 does that mean we can't playback any mpeg2
> > based recording - e.g. Freeview in the UK?
> >
> > It seems you are removing a core feature of MythTV?
> >
> > Can you explain what libmpeg2 does?
> >
> > If I have an oldish machine without VDPAU does this mean I can no
> > longer playback any recordings?
>
> libmpeg2 is just a decoding library for mpeg2, it has basically been
> replaced by the use of ffmpeg, but from what I understand was left in
> as a just-in-case for when ffmpeg may have issues on certain user
> hardware, or with certain users files.

All OTA television in the USA is MPEG2, I wouldn't worry about Myth
dropping support for the codec.

They are just dropping support for an older method of decoding mpeg2,
most everyone uses ffmpeg these days.

XvMC is an older hardware support method for mpeg2, it's pretty well
been replaced by VDPAU, and decoding mpeg2 in software is not all that
CPU intensive (pretty much anything over 500 Mhz. can handle it at SD
resolutions).



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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/3/2010 13:04, Brian Wood wrote:
> On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote
>> Hopefully VA-API will be supported soon in some fashion and this will
>> allow the intel graphics hardware to accelerate playback, especially
>> on laptops that have it and no ability to support the CrystalHD
>> miniPCI devices.
> I'd really like to see Intel graphics become usable, I've passed on a
> few hardware options because they have Intel GPUs. Making old laptops,
> perhaps with broken screens, become usable frontends would be nice, only
> the newest ones seem to have mini-PCI slots for a CrystalHD module.

Intel graphics are perfectly usable. If benchmark websites are to be
believed, the X4500s should have plenty of power to use the OpenGL
renderer, and the GMA HD units in i3 and i5 processors are actually
comparable to the nVidia chips in ION systems.

VA-API is only supported for the X4500HD/MHD, GMA HD and GMA 500
chipsets. Most people with existing Intel systems will have GMA 950,
X3100, or X4500 (non-HD) chipsets. None of these are supported by
VA-API. Of the systems that are supported, the X4500HD and GMA HD
chipsets are only found in high end systems, which are likely to already
be able to decode everything using the software decoders, making VA-API
nice but unnecessary. The only systems that will be made usable through
VA-API are low end GMA 500 based ones.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/03/2010 01:19 PM, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2010, at 1:12 PM, nospam312 wrote:
>> Can you explain what libmpeg2 does?
> Its an alternative mpeg2 decoding engine to the primary ffmpeg one.

that hasn't been updated for years, that doesn't successfully decode
many MPEG-2 streams that exist today, and that has always broken
captions/subtitles (meaning you can't get them with libmpeg2).

It's what people who flip switches without understanding them may use,
but anyone with a working MythTV uses ffmpeg for decoding MPEG-2. :)

At one point the description said "faster", so some users chose it (then
reported bugs when things, like captions, didn't work). Here's what the
MythTV help text for the option now says:

libmpeg2 is slower on almost all processors than ffmpeg and breaks
caption decoding. Use at your own risk!

(So, anyone now using it needs to not.)

Mike
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 11:04:57AM -0700, Brian Wood wrote:

> On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote:
>
> > Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
> > using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
> > CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.

[...]

> I suspect many folks are like me, I keep pretty up to date with the main
> backend machine, but I still have a couple of AGP boxes in use as
> frontends. I've replaced one of them with a Revo (very happy with that),
> but I don't want to spend $400 to make everything VDPAU capable right
> now.

This pretty much summarizes my situation -- I am (was, see below)
depending on XvMC for one frontend that has an AGP bus and cannot decode
HD in software.

The XvMC migration has already started for some people -- Mythbuntu
disabled compile-time XvMC support in the latest auto-build packages
because of the number of crash reports that are apparently attributed
to XvMC. There was no heads up of this change in the Mythbuntu packages
because Mythbuntu developers assumed that there are few users using
XvMC. I found out that XvMC support was gone when my frontend wouldn't
playback anything.

At this point, given this situation, my options are:

- Build my own packages. Cons: there's a reason I use binary packages.
I don't really want to go and setup my own auto-build infrastructure to
keep on top of a -fixes branch.

- Try to find the last version of the Mythbuntu packages that have XvMC
support. Cons: I'll be running an old version that does not get fixes
from the -fixes branch.

- Buy a new frontend. Cons: was not planning on making the $$$
investment right now.

- Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
works. This seems like the best option I have right now.

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 2 December 2010 19:05, Robert McNamara <robert.mcnamara@gmail.com> wrote:
> We'd like to warn users that we are planning to drop XvMC and libmpeg2
> decoding support from forthcoming MythTV releases. MythTV 0.25 will be
> the first release without these features, so you still have several
> months to upgrade hardware if you wish to continue running the latest
> MythTV releases. Of course the newly released 0.24 will remain
> available if either XvMC or libmpeg2 are important to you.
> Why are we doing this?
>
> XvMC - The primary reason is that the XvMC code is very hard to
> maintain. It requires a lot special handling and does not support the
> features which many of our other video rendering methods provide. Far
> superior alternative hardware decoders such as Nvidia's VDPAU are now
> supported. Crystal HD, ATI and Intel support are also on the MythTV
> roadmap.
>
> libmpeg2 - A high proportion of problems reported to us can be traced
> back to libmpeg2, we want MythTV to be as stable as possible and the
> advantages of libmpeg2 are outweighed by the negatives. Like XvMC, it
> complicates the code in ways that make it harder to maintain.
>

You say that you wish to use ffmpeg for mpeg2 decoding instead of libmpeg2.
Although I have not looked at ffmpeg mpeg2 support recently, it was
way behind libmpeg2 performance wise and feature wise.
For example, there was no way to get ffmpeg to play DVD still menus,
it did not have the api required for that.
For example, sending a single I-frame to libmpeg2, libmpeg2 is able to
display it onto the screen immediately, ffmpeg only does this after
other frames have arrived in the buffer.
So, I am only highlighting some issues you might not be aware of,
particularly if myth is able to play DVDs.

Regarding XvMC, it is a very simple protocol. Surely ffmpeg could be
made to support it.
XvMC is still used by a lot of people to play SD content using older
STBs. Maybe the way forward is to make a VDPAU API to XvMC converter,
whereby software does a lot of the VDPAU API, and it uses XvMC where
it can. I think the difficulty might be in the fact that XvMC is MPEG2
specific, and cannot handle any MPEG4 media.

I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward for HD
content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no sensible
reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV is only 17
inches and has no HDMI connector.

But, I then have a problem, keep the STB mythfrontend in the kitchen
at 0.24, and have .26 in the Lounge, but .26 might upgrade the backend
database, making it incompatible with 0.24 mythfrontend in the
kitchen.

I would also like to point out that although HDMI has been around for
a long time, I only got my first HDMI capable PC last week.
I do not think I am alone in this. Many other people will not be ready
to upgrade their hardware.

Kind Regards

James
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.

If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to be
sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits are not
active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content that can't
be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth to
realistically be used.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 09:33, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward for HD
> content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no sensible
> reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV is only 17
> inches and has no HDMI connector.

It has nothing to do with the content it is usable with, and everything
to do with the direction we want to take the presentation of MythTV. Xv
has no OSD support to speak of. Any overlays must be rendered to the
size of the video, converted to YUV, and baked into the video. XvMC has
OSD support, but it is very primitive, and ends up being more limiting
than Xv. The fact that XvMC has been unnecessary for any desktop
processor made in the past five years, and $25 gets you a video card
plenty capable of handling the OpenGL painter, has just made the
decision an easier one.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
James Courtier-Dutton wrote:

> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no sensible
> reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV is only 17
> inches and has no HDMI connector.
>

>
> I would also like to point out that although HDMI has been around for
> a long time, I only got my first HDMI capable PC last week.
> I do not think I am alone in this. Many other people will not be ready
> to upgrade their hardware.
>

I think you're a bit confused. HDMI has nothing to do with any of this.
It's just a connector type. I've been running HD for years over VGA,
DVI and Component connections. Also, VDPAU is not HD specific.

A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content without
GPU assistance. How old is your hardware in that it cannot decode SD
content with the CPU? Even seven years ago when I was running .11 I
didn't require XvMC for any SD content. I think I was using an Athlon
XP 2500 at that time.

Perhaps when you state "XvMC is still used by a lot of people to play SD
content using older STBs", there is a distinct difference between "used"
and "needed".

Regardless, I don't think it's too much of a stretch by the developers
to target new releases of MythTV to hardware which is at most two to
three years old. It lessons the effort required, reduces complexity and
allows them more freedom to add features. .24 has a very impressive
feature set which should be able to carry people with a taste for
ancient hardware for quite some time.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sunday, December 05, 2010 12:26:57 pm BP wrote:

> A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content
> without GPU assistance. How old is your hardware in that it cannot
> decode SD content with the CPU? Even seven years ago when I was
> running .11 I didn't require XvMC for any SD content. I think I was
> using an Athlon XP 2500 at that time.

As a datapoint, Dell stopped putting hardware mpeg decoders in their
DVD-equipped laptops at the time their CPUs hit 500Mhz.

Of course they were using highly-optimized code for the DVD player, so
it might be better to say that 750 Mhz. is required to decode SD mpeg2
in software. Myth does more than just play the file, so it would need a
little more than just decoding would require.

So anything you can buy now, or even 5-7 years ago, should be able to
cope with SD mpeg2 decoding by the CPU.

Of course h264 is an entirely different story.

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Brian Wood wrote:

> Of course they were using highly-optimized code for the DVD player, so
> it might be better to say that 750 Mhz. is required to decode SD mpeg2
> in software. Myth does more than just play the file, so it would need a
> little more than just decoding would require.

I'm using ffmpeg decoding in playback and it consumes 25-30% of Pentium-M
running at 800 MHz (which can scale up to 1.73 GHz). Even when recording
with one channel with DVB-C and doing simultaneous playback and
commercial detection it seldom went over 800 MHz in 0.23-fixes. With
0.24-fixes CPU goes to 1.73 GHz and commercial detection ends almost same
time as recording.

> Of course h264 is an entirely different story.

My machine can't handle this at all. That's why I'm looking passive single
slot VPDAU card. But atleast in Finland they are hard to find:(.

Juhani
--
Juhani Rautiainen jrauti@iki.fi
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sunday, December 05, 2010 01:00:26 pm Juhani Rautiainen wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Brian Wood wrote:
> > Of course they were using highly-optimized code for the DVD player,
> > so it might be better to say that 750 Mhz. is required to decode
> > SD mpeg2 in software. Myth does more than just play the file, so
> > it would need a little more than just decoding would require.
>
> I'm using ffmpeg decoding in playback and it consumes 25-30% of
> Pentium-M running at 800 MHz (which can scale up to 1.73 GHz). Even
> when recording with one channel with DVB-C and doing simultaneous
> playback and commercial detection it seldom went over 800 MHz in
> 0.23-fixes. With 0.24-fixes CPU goes to 1.73 GHz and commercial
> detection ends almost same time as recording.

A good datapoint, thanks.

>
> > Of course h264 is an entirely different story.
>
> My machine can't handle this at all. That's why I'm looking passive
> single slot VPDAU card. But atleast in Finland they are hard to
> find:(.

If by "single slot" you mean "doesn't block the adjacent slot" you may
have problems. Most (make that every) fanless VDPAU card I have seen
will block the adjacent slot to some degree.

I have an EVGA 8400GS card with a fan that can barely be heard (just
put it into service last night in fact), I have also seen some
replacement GPU fans on the market that might be quieter than some
standard ones.

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Sent from my iPhone

On 2010-12-05, at 11:28, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:

> On 12/5/2010 09:33, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>> I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward for
>> HD
>> content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
>> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no sensible
>> reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV is only 17
>> inches and has no HDMI connector.
>
> It has nothing to do with the content it is usable with, and
> everything to do with the direction we want to take the presentation
> of MythTV. Xv has no OSD support to speak of. Any overlays must be
> rendered to the size of the video, converted to YUV, and baked into
> the video. XvMC has OSD support, but it is very primitive, and ends
> up being more limiting than Xv. The fact that XvMC has been
> unnecessary for any desktop processor made in the past five years,
> and $25 gets you a video card plenty capable of handling the OpenGL
> painter, has just made the decision an easier one.

This cuts off anyone using a laptop with an Intel video chipset. For
quite a while ( versions 2.5 through 2.8) XvMC was turned off. In
2.9.1 it works reaonably making my 1.8Ghz X-61tablet a reasonable myth
platform.

I would hate to lose that. And Lenovo does seem to make laptops with
nvidia chipsets and Lenovo is the only maker offering the trackpoint.
A Venn diagram of nvidia and trackpoint has no intersection!
Geoff
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sunday, December 05, 2010 01:50:56 pm Newbury wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 2010-12-05, at 11:28, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
> > On 12/5/2010 09:33, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> >> I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward
> >> for HD
> >> content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
> >> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no
> >> sensible reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV
> >> is only 17 inches and has no HDMI connector.
> >
> > It has nothing to do with the content it is usable with, and
> > everything to do with the direction we want to take the
> > presentation of MythTV. Xv has no OSD support to speak of. Any
> > overlays must be rendered to the size of the video, converted to
> > YUV, and baked into the video. XvMC has OSD support, but it is
> > very primitive, and ends up being more limiting than Xv. The fact
> > that XvMC has been unnecessary for any desktop processor made in
> > the past five years, and $25 gets you a video card plenty capable
> > of handling the OpenGL painter, has just made the decision an
> > easier one.
>
> This cuts off anyone using a laptop with an Intel video chipset. For
> quite a while ( versions 2.5 through 2.8) XvMC was turned off. In
> 2.9.1 it works reaonably making my 1.8Ghz X-61tablet a reasonable
> myth platform.
>
> I would hate to lose that. And Lenovo does seem to make laptops with
> nvidia chipsets and Lenovo is the only maker offering the trackpoint.
> A Venn diagram of nvidia and trackpoint has no intersection!
> Geoff

Yeah. Many Myth users have "secondary" machines that might not meet
today's standards.

It's like in the TV business, we all figured that everyone had a color
set, and so we didn't worry too much about how things would look in B+W,
forgetting that a lot of monochrome sets still existed in bedrooms,
kitchens, kid's rooms etc.

Backwards compatibility is always desirable. Perhaps there should be a
stripped down version of Myth's frontend that would still support the
latest database schema and other protocols, but would run on minimal
hardware, even without the latest bells and whistles, but still usable
with a reduced feature set.

Myth is not just a Living Room experience anymore.


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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:00 AM, Brian Wood <beww@beww.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 05, 2010 01:50:56 pm Newbury wrote:
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 2010-12-05, at 11:28, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
>> > On 12/5/2010 09:33, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>> >> I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward
>> >> for HD
>> >> content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
>> >> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no
>> >> sensible reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV
>> >> is only 17 inches and has no HDMI connector.
>> >
>> > It has nothing to do with the content it is usable with, and
>> > everything to do with the direction we want to take the
>> > presentation of MythTV.  Xv has no OSD support to speak of.  Any
>> > overlays must be rendered to the size of the video, converted to
>> > YUV, and baked into the video.  XvMC has OSD support, but it is
>> > very primitive, and ends up being more limiting than Xv.  The fact
>> > that XvMC has been unnecessary for any desktop processor made in
>> > the past five years, and $25 gets you a video card plenty capable
>> > of handling the OpenGL painter, has just made the decision an
>> > easier one.
>>
>> This cuts off anyone using a laptop with an Intel video chipset. For
>> quite a while ( versions 2.5 through 2.8) XvMC was turned off. In
>> 2.9.1 it works reaonably making my 1.8Ghz X-61tablet a reasonable
>> myth platform.
>>
>> I would hate to lose that. And Lenovo does seem to make laptops with
>> nvidia chipsets and Lenovo is the only maker offering the trackpoint.
>> A Venn diagram of nvidia and trackpoint has no intersection!
>> Geoff
>
> Yeah. Many Myth users have "secondary" machines that might not meet
> today's standards.
>
> It's like in the TV business, we all figured that everyone had a color
> set, and so we didn't worry too much about how things would look in B+W,
> forgetting that a lot of monochrome sets still existed in bedrooms,
> kitchens, kid's rooms etc.
>
> Backwards compatibility is always desirable. Perhaps there should be a
> stripped down version of Myth's frontend that would still support the
> latest database schema and other protocols, but would run on minimal
> hardware, even without the latest bells and whistles, but still usable
> with a reduced feature set.

I guess one of the promises of upnp is the abilty for any client with
a upnp stack and a media player to watch recordings and videos, using
whatever player is efficient on that client. Other players may still
support xvmc.

There is also the flash streaming available in mythweb.

No you don't get a full frontend, but if these are not the main living
room experience, you may be able to live with that.

Come to think of it xvmc has a usable front end, i don't know if they
still (or ever) support xvmc, but it could be worth exploring.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:26:57AM -0800, BP wrote:
> James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>
> >For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no sensible
> >reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV is only 17
> >inches and has no HDMI connector.
> >
>
> >
> >I would also like to point out that although HDMI has been around for
> >a long time, I only got my first HDMI capable PC last week.
> >I do not think I am alone in this. Many other people will not be ready
> >to upgrade their hardware.
> >
>
> I think you're a bit confused. HDMI has nothing to do with any of
> this. It's just a connector type. I've been running HD for years
> over VGA, DVI and Component connections. Also, VDPAU is not HD
> specific.
>
> A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content
> without GPU assistance. How old is your hardware in that it cannot

Well, an Atom will certainly do well enough for MPEG2. It will manage
to "squeak by" for DIVX. So it probably has no hope of coping with h264.
So it's paramount that whatever acceleration features are available on the
GPU are supported (whatever they are).

[deletia]
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sunday, December 05, 2010 01:50:56 pm Newbury wrote:
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 2010-12-05, at 11:28, Raymond Wagner<raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/5/2010 09:33, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>>>> I agree that VDPAU (and similar) and OpenGL are the way forward
>>>> for HD
>>>> content, but Xv and XvMC are still perfectly good for SD content.
>>>> For example, I have a small TV in the Kitchen. There is no
>>>> sensible reason for me to purchase a HD capable STB when the TV
>>>> is only 17 inches and has no HDMI connector.
>>> It has nothing to do with the content it is usable with, and
>>> everything to do with the direction we want to take the
>>> presentation of MythTV. Xv has no OSD support to speak of. Any
>>> overlays must be rendered to the size of the video, converted to
>>> YUV, and baked into the video. XvMC has OSD support, but it is
>>> very primitive, and ends up being more limiting than Xv. The fact
>>> that XvMC has been unnecessary for any desktop processor made in
>>> the past five years, and $25 gets you a video card plenty capable
>>> of handling the OpenGL painter, has just made the decision an
>>> easier one.
>> This cuts off anyone using a laptop with an Intel video chipset. For
>> quite a while ( versions 2.5 through 2.8) XvMC was turned off. In
>> 2.9.1 it works reaonably making my 1.8Ghz X-61tablet a reasonable
>> myth platform.

The 1.8GHz Core 2 Duo in an X-61 should have no problem playing any
recorded MPEG2 content without the aid of XvMC.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 16:29, jedi wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:26:57AM -0800, BP wrote:
>> A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content
>> without GPU assistance. How old is your hardware in that it cannot
> Well, an Atom will certainly do well enough for MPEG2. It will manage
> to "squeak by" for DIVX. So it probably has no hope of coping with h264.
> So it's paramount that whatever acceleration features are available on the
> GPU are supported (whatever they are).

XvMC does not help DivX, XviD, or H264 decoding in any manner.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Hi

On 6 December 2010 07:50, Newbury <newbury@mandamus.org> wrote:
> This cuts off anyone using a laptop with an Intel video chipset. For quite a
> while ( versions 2.5 through 2.8) XvMC was turned off. In 2.9.1 it works
> reaonably making my 1.8Ghz X-61tablet a reasonable myth platform.
>
> I would hate to lose that. And Lenovo does seem to make laptops with nvidia
> chipsets and Lenovo is the only maker offering the trackpoint. A Venn
> diagram of nvidia and trackpoint has no intersection!

Intel has OpenGL support, so not having Xv isn't an issue..

I personally never used XvMC on any of my mythtv frontend.

Several years ago, I had a 1.8GHz P4 machine, I put a nVidia 6500 card
in there at the time this card was the recommended one for mythtv. Got
it specifically for XvMC.

Turned out to look aweful, OSD was in black&white and as the P4 would
decode mpeg2 without any problems, there was no reasons to keep trying
to use XvMC.
At the most, for 1080i mpeg2, using the kernel 2X deinterlacer, the
CPU would sit at around 80%. For SD, it would be 15-20%

If you have a processor > 500MHz, for SD content I don't see why you
would want to use XvMC.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:

> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
> >- Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
> >a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
> >works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>
> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits are
> not active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content that
> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
> to realistically be used.

Thanks for the insight.

Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
>>> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
>>> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
>> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits are
>> not active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content that
>> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
>> to realistically be used.
> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
> am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
> has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
> it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?

VDPAU in MythTV really isn't happy with less than 512MB of memory. A
quick check of newegg means the price is bumped up to $50.

Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a
lowly Atom. You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for
any software decoding needs for around $300. If you have an existing
system you can scavage, you can manage one for less than $200. I put
together an upgrade almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core, nVidia
micro-atx, 2GB), that is still plenty capable of handling anything I've
thrown at it.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
> On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>>
>>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
>>>> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
>>>> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>>>
>>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
>>> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI.  The other UI bits are
>>> not active enough to cause any problems wither.  Any HD content that
>>> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
>>> to realistically be used.
>>
>> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
>> am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
>> has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
>> it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?
>
> VDPAU in MythTV really isn't happy with less than 512MB of memory.  A quick
> check of newegg means the price is bumped up to $50.
>
> Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a lowly
> Atom.  You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for any software
> decoding needs for around $300.  If you have an existing system you can
> scavage, you can manage one for less than $200.  I put together an upgrade
> almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core, nVidia micro-atx, 2GB), that
> is still plenty capable of handling anything I've thrown at it.

This is fine for those of you in the US.

1. You can get a revo for US$200. (albeit a refurb 1600)

2. US$200 is NZ$248 according to my bank, right now.

3. the cheapest revo i can find in NZ here right now is a 3610 for $758.

I know thats not quite apples with apples as they are different
version, but the prices here are off the richter scale.

Same goes for most IT gear, anything you can buy for US$X will be
NZ$3X, particularly small, quiet, efficient - this just seems to be a
reason to rort the average kiwi even more!

Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!


> _______________________________________________
> mythtv-users mailing list
> mythtv-users@mythtv.org
> http://mythtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mythtv-users
>
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 22:00, Raymond Wagner wrote:
> On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
>> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to
>>>> using
>>>> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
>>>> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
>>> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits are
>>> not active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content that
>>> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
>>> to realistically be used.
>> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
>> am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
>> has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
>> it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?
> Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a
> lowly Atom. You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for
> any software decoding needs for around $300. If you have an existing
> system you can scavage, you can manage one for less than $200. I put
> together an upgrade almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core,
> nVidia micro-atx, 2GB), that is still plenty capable of handling
> anything I've thrown at it.

A quick example, try...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157187
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146118
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103903

for $147

Or use...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103872

for a bit more power at $162


If you prefer Intel, try...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813500019
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820146118
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116367

for $196

Or...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157190
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145252
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115221

for $209
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/5/2010 22:16, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Raymond Wagner<raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
>> On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>>>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
>>>>> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
>>>>> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>>>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
>>>> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits are
>>>> not active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content that
>>>> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
>>>> to realistically be used.
>>> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
>>> am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
>>> has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
>>> it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?
>> VDPAU in MythTV really isn't happy with less than 512MB of memory. A quick
>> check of newegg means the price is bumped up to $50.
>>
>> Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a lowly
>> Atom. You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for any software
>> decoding needs for around $300. If you have an existing system you can
>> scavage, you can manage one for less than $200. I put together an upgrade
>> almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core, nVidia micro-atx, 2GB), that
>> is still plenty capable of handling anything I've thrown at it.
> This is fine for those of you in the US.
>
> 1. You can get a revo for US$200. (albeit a refurb 1600)
>
> 2. US$200 is NZ$248 according to my bank, right now.
>
> 3. the cheapest revo i can find in NZ here right now is a 3610 for $758.
>
> I know thats not quite apples with apples as they are different
> version, but the prices here are off the richter scale.
>
> Same goes for most IT gear, anything you can buy for US$X will be
> NZ$3X, particularly small, quiet, efficient - this just seems to be a
> reason to rort the average kiwi even more!
>
> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!

Fair enough, but in this case, his email server maps back to a cable
internet account in North Carolina. Plus, he referenced Newegg
himself... :P
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com> wrote:
>> On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to using
>>>>> a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it seems like it
>>>>> works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>>>>
>>>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going to
>>>> be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI.  The other UI bits are
>>>> not active enough to cause any problems wither.  Any HD content that
>>>> can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much bandwidth
>>>> to realistically be used.
>>>
>>> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's what I
>>> am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card is that it
>>> has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal breaker and
>>> it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes of RAM?
>>
>> VDPAU in MythTV really isn't happy with less than 512MB of memory.  A quick
>> check of newegg means the price is bumped up to $50.
>>
>> Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a lowly
>> Atom.  You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for any software
>> decoding needs for around $300.  If you have an existing system you can
>> scavage, you can manage one for less than $200.  I put together an upgrade
>> almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core, nVidia micro-atx, 2GB), that
>> is still plenty capable of handling anything I've thrown at it.
>
> This is fine for those of you in the US.
>
> 1. You can get a revo for US$200. (albeit a refurb 1600)
>
> 2. US$200 is NZ$248 according to my bank, right now.
>
> 3. the cheapest revo i can find in NZ here right now is a 3610 for $758.
>
> I know thats not quite apples with apples as they are different
> version, but the prices here are off the richter scale.
>
> Same goes for most IT gear, anything you can buy for US$X will be
> NZ$3X, particularly small, quiet, efficient - this just seems to be a
> reason to rort the average kiwi even more!
>
> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!

ebay.co.nz shows Revo's available for $335NZD Buy It Now with free
shipping.....I'm sure you'd like to support your fellow Kiwi's, but
buying from Hong Kong will certainly save a few bob.

- Chris
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 5 December 2010 19:43, Brian Wood <beww@beww.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 05, 2010 12:26:57 pm BP wrote:
>
>> A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content
>> without GPU assistance.  How old is your hardware in that it cannot
>> decode SD content with the CPU?  Even seven years ago when I was
>> running .11 I didn't require XvMC for any SD content.  I think I was
>> using an Athlon XP 2500 at that time.
>
> As a datapoint, Dell stopped putting hardware mpeg decoders in their
> DVD-equipped laptops at the time their CPUs hit 500Mhz.
>
> Of course they were using highly-optimized code for the DVD player, so
> it might be better to say that 750 Mhz. is required to decode SD mpeg2
> in software. Myth does more than just play the file, so it would need a
> little more than just decoding would require.
>

The mpeg2 decode on the CPU is not the issue with old PCs.
The problem area is the transfer of data from the CPU to the graphics card.
XV makes considerable savings in this area over plain RGB putimage.
XvMC makes even further savings by instead just sending the macro
blocks to the video card.

I think that another approach might be to have myth 0.24 in a
maintenance mode, whereby it can always talk to the latest
myth-backend database.
So, old PCs can continue to use 0.24 mythfrontend.
Is this a workable way forward?
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:11 AM, James Courtier-Dutton <
james.dutton@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5 December 2010 19:43, Brian Wood <beww@beww.org> wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 05, 2010 12:26:57 pm BP wrote:
> >
> >> A cheap Atom based computer should be able to decode SD content
> >> without GPU assistance. How old is your hardware in that it cannot
> >> decode SD content with the CPU? Even seven years ago when I was
> >> running .11 I didn't require XvMC for any SD content. I think I was
> >> using an Athlon XP 2500 at that time.
> >
> > As a datapoint, Dell stopped putting hardware mpeg decoders in their
> > DVD-equipped laptops at the time their CPUs hit 500Mhz.
> >
> > Of course they were using highly-optimized code for the DVD player, so
> > it might be better to say that 750 Mhz. is required to decode SD mpeg2
> > in software. Myth does more than just play the file, so it would need a
> > little more than just decoding would require.
> >
>
> The mpeg2 decode on the CPU is not the issue with old PCs.
> The problem area is the transfer of data from the CPU to the graphics card.
> XV makes considerable savings in this area over plain RGB putimage.
> XvMC makes even further savings by instead just sending the macro
> blocks to the video card.
>
> I think that another approach might be to have myth 0.24 in a
> maintenance mode, whereby it can always talk to the latest
> myth-backend database.
> So, old PCs can continue to use 0.24 mythfrontend.
> Is this a workable way forward?
>

Being open source, anyone is free to implement this very type of features
and distribute it to all those that desire it. Don't expect it to be
supported by the main MythTV project though. It is moving forward. I
personally, don't understand the arguing. I have a master backend that can
only play back HD content using XvMC (AGP card, Athlon 1800 processor). I
understand that with 0.25, I can no longer use it as an occasional frontend
for HD content. Fine, no big deal. I have a number of workarounds (many
posted here) at my disposal. It may be an inconvenience but I've gotten
*years* of good use out of the machine and as a backend, it will continue to
get years more I imagine. Time to move on and if you can't stay with the
cutting edge, you're welcome to continue running the version you have
forever.

Kevin

Kevin
Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 10:26:09PM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:

[...]

> >>>Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's
> >>>what I am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card
> >>>is that it has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a
> >>>deal breaker and it'd be better to go with another card that has
> >>>512 MBytes of RAM?

[...]

> >>Your original $400 quote is really a bit excessive, especially for a lowly
> >>Atom. You can build a full system with plenty of CPU power for any software
> >>decoding needs for around $300. If you have an existing system you can
> >>scavage, you can manage one for less than $200. I put together an upgrade
> >>almost two years ago for $160 (AMD dual-core, nVidia micro-atx, 2GB), that
> >>is still plenty capable of handling anything I've thrown at it.
> >This is fine for those of you in the US.
> >
> >1. You can get a revo for US$200. (albeit a refurb 1600)
> >
> >2. US$200 is NZ$248 according to my bank, right now.
> >
> >3. the cheapest revo i can find in NZ here right now is a 3610 for $758.
> >
> >I know thats not quite apples with apples as they are different
> >version, but the prices here are off the richter scale.
> >
> >Same goes for most IT gear, anything you can buy for US$X will be
> >NZ$3X, particularly small, quiet, efficient - this just seems to be a
> >reason to rort the average kiwi even more!
> >
> >Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
> >discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>
> Fair enough, but in this case, his email server maps back to a cable
> internet account in North Carolina. Plus, he referenced Newegg
> himself... :P

Well, I mentioned that I saw a VDPAU-capable card in newegg for less
that $40 (I think it was $35). I'm still scratching my head regarding
the Revo comments. Perhaps the original $400 comment (if there ever was
one) about some Atom-powered machine was made by someone else? Or my $40
comment on a video card ended up being interpreted as a $400 comment on
an actual machine? :-)

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. Now I know I should be shooting for a
512 MByte VDPAU capable card, and have some good insight into a new
machine, if I decide to go that route ;-)

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal@gmail.com> wrote:
> get years more I imagine.  Time to move on and if you can't stay with the
> cutting edge, you're welcome to continue running the version you have
> forever.

Just wanted to say I'm glad someone pointed this out -- after reading
this thread I'm surprised to see how many people read this
announcement as "now you have to upgrade your hardware". If your 0.24
based system is stable and runs on your old hardware, and you object
to buying new hardware for whatever reason (budget, environment,
time), the solution is very easy -- keep what you have! It not like a
bottle of milk, it has no expiration date.

So simple, yet so often overlooked....
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Monday, December 06, 2010 09:39:08 am Joe wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Kevin Kuphal <kkuphal@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > get years more I imagine. Time to move on and if you can't stay
> > with the cutting edge, you're welcome to continue running the
> > version you have forever.
>
> Just wanted to say I'm glad someone pointed this out -- after reading
> this thread I'm surprised to see how many people read this
> announcement as "now you have to upgrade your hardware". If your
> 0.24 based system is stable and runs on your old hardware, and you
> object to buying new hardware for whatever reason (budget,
> environment, time), the solution is very easy -- keep what you have!
> It not like a bottle of milk, it has no expiration date.
>
> So simple, yet so often overlooked....

Quite correct. I have an old SD system running Mythdora 5 with a 5200
video card. It works great, even today. I gave it to someone as an
"appliance", it still outperforms any cable company box or Tivo, and I
expect it will continue to do so for many years.

There's nothing as far as hardware that can't be easily replaced, and
the software is stable as a rock. This system once rolled up 2 years of
uptime with no problems.

Upgrading a system that meets your needs is silly. It's the marketing
types who foster this "I must upgrade" mode of thinking. Remember that
"old" means "well tested".

Of course the industry (in general, not Myth) tries its best to force
you to upgrade, it makes no money if you don't.

Planned obsolescence is an old trick.


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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com>
wrote:
>> On 12/5/2010 21:33, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 05, 2010 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/5/2010 08:52, Eloy Paris wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Buy a PCI card that can do VDPAU. Cons: any negative downside to
>>>>> using a PCI card to play HD? Based on the VDPAU in the wiki it
>>>>> seems like it works. This seems like the best option I have right now.
>>>>
>>>> If you're playing content usable through VDPAU, you're only going
>>>> to be sending a few MB/s, not a problem for PCI. The other UI bits
>>>> are not active enough to cause any problems wither. Any HD content
>>>> that can't be played through VDPAU will likely require too much
>>>> bandwidth to realistically be used.
>>>
>>> Newegg has a NVIDA 8400-based PCI card for less than $40. That's
>>> what I am thinking of buying. The only problem I see with this card
>>> is that it has 256 MBytes of RAM. Would this amount of RAM be a deal
>>> breaker and it'd be better to go with another card that has 512 MBytes
of RAM?
>>
>> VDPAU in MythTV really isn't happy with less than 512MB of memory. A
>> quick check of newegg means the price is bumped up to $50.
>>

I have an Intel D945PSN mobo (dual 2.8 GHz CPU) that was running a now
broken Sapphire ATI 800GT graphics card. The video buss is PCI Express X16.
I'm not sure if that PCI Express is version 1.0 or 1.1.

I'm looking to replace the graphics card, and $50 is within budget. Are you
guys recommending nVideo VDPAU for MythTV as well as windows Netflix
streaming? If so, which 8400 based 512 MB card are you talking about -- I'm
interested.

BTW, it looks like all PCI Express X16 video cards sold today are PCI
Express version 2.0. Is there an issue running these on a PCI Express
version 1.0 or 1.1 mobo?

Thanks,
Stan

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/6/2010 12:13, stan wrote:
> Are you guys recommending nVideo VDPAU for MythTV as well as windows Netflix
> streaming?

Neither MythTV, nor Linux in general, can do Netflix streaming. Netflix
streaming requires capabilities in Silverlight not available in Moonlight.

> BTW, it looks like all PCI Express X16 video cards sold today are PCI
> Express version 2.0. Is there an issue running these on a PCI Express
> version 1.0 or 1.1 mobo?

Shouldnt be a problem.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Hi Stan,

On Mon, Dec 06, 2010 at 10:13:56AM -0700, stan wrote:

> I have an Intel D945PSN mobo (dual 2.8 GHz CPU) that was running a now
> broken Sapphire ATI 800GT graphics card. The video buss is PCI Express X16.
> I'm not sure if that PCI Express is version 1.0 or 1.1.
>
> I'm looking to replace the graphics card, and $50 is within budget. Are you
> guys recommending nVideo VDPAU for MythTV as well as windows Netflix
> streaming? If so, which 8400 based 512 MB card are you talking about -- I'm
> interested.

To see what's available (specifically at newegg), you can start here:

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=48&name=Desktop-Graphics-Video-Cards

Choose on the left your options, e.g. bus type and NVIDIA as the chipset
manufacturer, and you'll be able to eliminate the cards you don't want.

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/VDPAU has some cards some users have reported
as working.

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-

>
> BTW, it looks like all PCI Express X16 video cards sold today are PCI
> Express version 2.0. Is there an issue running these on a PCI Express
> version 1.0 or 1.1 mobo?
>
> Thanks,
> Stan
>
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!

Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't
exactly environmentally sound...
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@computer.org> wrote:
> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>>
>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>
> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't exactly
> environmentally sound...

Donate it to your local school or an inner city organization.


--
Steve
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User:Steveadeff
Before you ask, read the FAQ!
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
then search the Wiki, and this list,
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/
Mailinglist etiquette -
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Steven Adeff <adeffs.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@computer.org> wrote:
>> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>
>>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>>
>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't exactly
>> environmentally sound...
>
> Donate it to your local school or an inner city organization.


The average school actually doesn't want OLD hardware in my
experience. they want modern hardware, with a warranty and/or a
maintenace contract supported by their IT people.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/6/2010 14:42, Jan Ceuleers wrote:
> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't
> exactly environmentally sound...

For what its worth, you're throwing away your old inefficient Pentium
4s, Athlons, and Athlon XPs for machines that idle at well under half
the power consumption. It has been mentioned several times in this
list, but Toms Hardware has an article detailing a high end i5, fully
capable of decoding any video you may record or purchase for MythTV in
software without any acceleration, that idles for under 25W. For people
who leave their machines on all the time, you're _helping_ the environment.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/6/2010 15:15, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Steven Adeff<adeffs.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jan Ceuleers<jan.ceuleers@computer.org> wrote:
>>> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>>>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't exactly
>>> environmentally sound...
>> Donate it to your local school or an inner city organization.
> The average school actually doesn't want OLD hardware in my
> experience. they want modern hardware, with a warranty and/or a
> maintenace contract supported by their IT people.

My local grade school actually is actively seeking such old hardware,
although they're generally going for 3yr old corporate PCs and servers,
rather than our 6+yr old cast offs. There are plenty of other
organizations which will take them. Off hand, I know of three companies
in the local area that will take old machines for free, and either
repair/refurb them for donation, savage them for spare parts, or send
them off to the proper recycling company.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Steven Adeff <adeffs.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@computer.org> wrote:
>>> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>>>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>>>
>>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't exactly
>>> environmentally sound...
>>
>> Donate it to your local school or an inner city organization.
>
>
> The average school actually doesn't want OLD hardware in my
> experience. they want modern hardware, with a warranty and/or a
> maintenace contract supported by their IT people.

shame.
donate it to the local college ECSE department?

in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
towns collect this type of thing.

--
Steve
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/User:Steveadeff
Before you ask, read the FAQ!
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
then search the Wiki, and this list,
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Agreed. It is not environmentally sound. But if your hardware doesnt
support the new version & functionality there is no-one forcing you to
upgrade. If .24 works fine for you dont upgrade until your natural
replacement cycle obsoletes the hardware.

I have never been very satisfied with my Via SP13000 with Myth and the
purchase of an ION system was money well spent.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff <adeffs.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Nick Rout <nick.rout@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Steven Adeff <adeffs.mythtv@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Jan Ceuleers <jan.ceuleers@computer.org> wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/10 04:16, Nick Rout wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not your fault I know, but very annoying when I see this sort of
>>>>> discussion and people saying how cheap an upgrade is!
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>>>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't exactly
>>>> environmentally sound...
>>>
>>> Donate it to your local school or an inner city organization.
>>
>>
>> The average school actually doesn't want OLD hardware in my
>> experience. they want modern hardware, with a warranty and/or a
>> maintenace contract supported by their IT people.
>
> shame.

very much so, but we know kids are possibly the most intensive users
of cpu known to man. Everything they do has a multimedia component,
even the simplest maths exercise web pages are full of flash etc etc.

> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
>
> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
> towns collect this type of thing.

yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server too.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
>> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
>>
>> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
>> towns collect this type of thing.
> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server too.

Or as a MythTV backend.

Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need fast
backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need fast
mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow backends).

My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.

You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.

Mike
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 06/12/10 21:21, Raymond Wagner wrote:
>> Not to mention the fact that just throwing away hardware because the
>> newfanglest software can't be bothered to support it anymore isn't
>> exactly environmentally sound...
>
> For what its worth, you're throwing away your old inefficient Pentium
> 4s, Athlons, and Athlon XPs for machines that idle at well under half
> the power consumption. It has been mentioned several times in this list,
> but Toms Hardware has an article detailing a high end i5, fully capable
> of decoding any video you may record or purchase for MythTV in software
> without any acceleration, that idles for under 25W. For people who leave
> their machines on all the time, you're _helping_ the environment.

Well in my case I'd be throwing away Via C7-based machines, which
already consume next to nothing.

But to be clear: I was trying to wryly give two messages in one:

- a software project dropping support for older hardware is going to
result in hardware being scrapped for reasons that are difficult to
defend from an environmental perspective.

- having said that, in the end it's the user of the above-mentioned
software doing the scrapping, and they do still have the option of
sticking with whatever version of the software still works with their
hardware.
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Eloy Paris <peloy@chapus.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 11:04:57AM -0700, Brian Wood wrote:
>
>> On Friday, December 03, 2010 10:34:14 am Steven Adeff wrote:
>>
>> > Legacy hardware is an issue, but I wonder how many people are still
>> > using it? My headaches with XvMC led me to suck it up and buy better
>> > CPU's, then when VDPAU arrived, to buy hardware that supported that.
>
> [...]
>
>> I suspect many folks are like me, I keep pretty up to date with the main
>> backend machine, but I still have a couple of AGP boxes in use as
>> frontends. I've replaced one of them with a Revo (very happy with that),
>> but I don't want to spend $400 to make everything VDPAU capable right
>> now.
>
> This pretty much summarizes my situation -- I am (was, see below)
> depending on XvMC for one frontend that has an AGP bus and cannot decode
> HD in software.
>
> The XvMC migration has already started for some people -- Mythbuntu
> disabled compile-time XvMC support in the latest auto-build packages
> because of the number of crash reports that are apparently attributed
> to XvMC. There was no heads up of this change in the Mythbuntu packages
> because Mythbuntu developers assumed that there are few users using
> XvMC. I found out that XvMC support was gone when my frontend wouldn't
> playback anything.

can you tell me at what point this occurred?
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
Hi Nick,

On Tue, Dec 07, 2010 at 10:37:39AM +1300, Nick Rout wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:52 AM, Eloy Paris <peloy@chapus.net> wrote:
>
> > The XvMC migration has already started for some people -- Mythbuntu
> > disabled compile-time XvMC support in the latest auto-build
> > packages because of the number of crash reports that are apparently
> > attributed to XvMC. There was no heads up of this change in the
> > Mythbuntu packages because Mythbuntu developers assumed that there
> > are few users using XvMC. I found out that XvMC support was gone
> > when my frontend wouldn't playback anything.
>
> can you tell me at what point this occurred?

Sure; it happened at 1:0.24.0+fixes27305-0ubuntu1. Here's the changelog
entry for the change:

* Disable XvMC as it's causing crashes. VDPAU is better off in these
situations anyhow (LP: #660833)

Are you affected by this too? I tried to make the case with Mythbuntu
developers that it is easier for someone experiencing crashes attributed
to XvMC to search the web and find the solution (use a playback profile
that doesn't use XvMC) than for someone that uses XvMC and binary
packages to set up a local auto-build infrastructure just to build
packages with XvMC support locally enabled. Unfortunately it doesn't
look like I succeeded :-(

Cheers,

Eloy Paris.-

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Michael T. Dean <mtdean@thirdcontact.com> wrote:
>  On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
>>>
>>> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
>>>
>>> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
>>> towns collect this type of thing.
>>
>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server too.
>
> Or as a MythTV backend.
>
> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast.  Only people who feel they need
> faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need fast backend
> systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need fast mythjobqueue
> systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow backends).

How big a job would it be to get mythjobqueue running on Windows? I
dual boot an i5 750 based system, and whilst mythjobqueue can make
good use of idle cores under Ubuntu, they go wasted in Windows.

- Chris
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 06.12.2010 21:21, Steven Adeff wrote:
> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
> towns collect this type of thing.

Just as a side note: recycling of electronics is often done in 3rd world
countries under imensely inhumane and dangerous conditions. That is a
valid motivation to continue using old hardware as long as possible, and
any software is doing a Good Thing to support this.

regards
greg
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday, December 07, 2010 01:56:36 am dargllun wrote:
> On 06.12.2010 21:21, Steven Adeff wrote:
> > in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler. Most
> > towns collect this type of thing.
>
> Just as a side note: recycling of electronics is often done in 3rd
> world countries under imensely inhumane and dangerous conditions.
> That is a valid motivation to continue using old hardware as long as
> possible, and any software is doing a Good Thing to support this.

Indeed, there has been a lot of publicity about this.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/ghana804/video/video_index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2002/02/25/computer-waste.htm

http://www.workingdirectory.net/posts/2006/59/

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Recycling-Gone-Bad-Where-Does-Our-High-
Tech-Waste-Go-38885.shtml

And many more.

Often the organizers of "recycling fairs" or municipalities who try to
recycle old gear are unaware of this, and sometimes have even been
promised (dishonestly) that the stuff will be recycled in the US in
accordance with all applicable laws.

It's very difficult to find a legitimate recycler, and often you must pay
for such services. In California this fee must be paid up front when the
equipment is initially purchased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Waste_Recycling_Fee

I agree that not having to toss it in the first place is the best
solution.

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 7, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Steven Adeff wrote:
> >> donate it to the local college ECSE department?
> >>
> >> in the end, you can always take it to an electronics recycler.
> >> Most towns collect this type of thing.
> >
> > yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server
> > too.
>
> Or as a MythTV backend.
>
> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
> need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need
> fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need
> fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow
> backends).
>
> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
>
> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.

The exception would be if you were using software encoding, but I
suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM signals are
already encoded, you just have to record the stream, and capture devices
with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty reasonably priced these days.

Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
"reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
kilowatts.

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On 12/07/2010 09:31 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
>> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
>>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print server
>>> too.
>> Or as a MythTV backend.
>>
>> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel they
>> need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or transcoding need
>> fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they don't--they only need
>> fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily disable jobs on their slow
>> backends).
>>
>> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
>> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
>>
>> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.
> The exception would be if you were using software encoding,

True. My unsaid implication is that there's not really any good reason
to use frame grabbers/software encoding in 2010. :)

(Sure, those OC people who feel that they can better tweak the quality
of their analog NTSC/PAL by using a software encoder which allows the
application of filters and more control over the encoding options can
continue to do so--but I think if they were to discover that the weak
point in the chain is not the ivtv encoding options, but the NTSC/PAL,
they might reconsider. Regardless, someone who chooses to use an
inefficient mechanism for recording TV will have to take responsibility
for making such hardware available and figuring out what to do with the
underpowered frontend systems they may have acquired. :)

> but I
> suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM signals are
> already encoded, you just have to record the stream, and capture devices
> with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty reasonably priced these days.

True.

> Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
> "reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
> kilowatts.

Yes. And, really, if you do your shopping well, there's not much
difference between "cheap" and "reasonably priced".

Mike
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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday, December 07, 2010 11:14:27 am Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 12/07/2010 09:31 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> > On Monday, December 06, 2010 01:44:13 pm Michael T. Dean wrote:
> >> On 12/06/2010 03:26 PM, Nick Rout wrote:
> >>> yep. of course much of it will still work as a file or print
> >>> server too.
> >>
> >> Or as a MythTV backend.
> >>
> >> Dedicated backends don't need to be fast. Only people who feel
> >> they need faster-than-real-time commercial detection or
> >> transcoding need fast backend systems (and, in truth, even they
> >> don't--they only need fast mythjobqueue systems, and can easily
> >> disable jobs on their slow backends).
> >>
> >> My backend system can't even decode the video it records in real
> >> time--let alone play it back using Xv or OpenGL or VDPAU.
> >>
> >> You only need frontends that have 21st-century video output.
> >
> > The exception would be if you were using software encoding,
>
> True. My unsaid implication is that there's not really any good
> reason to use frame grabbers/software encoding in 2010. :)
>
> (Sure, those OC people who feel that they can better tweak the
> quality of their analog NTSC/PAL by using a software encoder which
> allows the application of filters and more control over the encoding
> options can continue to do so--but I think if they were to discover
> that the weak point in the chain is not the ivtv encoding options,
> but the NTSC/PAL, they might reconsider. Regardless, someone who
> chooses to use an inefficient mechanism for recording TV will have
> to take responsibility for making such hardware available and
> figuring out what to do with the underpowered frontend systems they
> may have acquired. :)
>
> > but I
> >
> > suspect not too many Myth users are doing this. ATSC and QAM
> > signals are already encoded, you just have to record the stream,
> > and capture devices with on-board mpeg2 encoding are pretty
> > reasonably priced these days.
>
> True.
>
> > Of course simple frame grabbers are really cheap (as opposed to
> > "reasonably priced"), but you wind up paying in CPU cycles and
> > kilowatts.
>
> Yes. And, really, if you do your shopping well, there's not much
> difference between "cheap" and "reasonably priced".


By "cheap" I mean sold by no-name vendors, with horrible (if any)
documentation, non-existent support and with highly questionable Windows
only software.

You can make such hardware work, once you determine the chipset(s) used,
and figure out more about what you actually have purchased, but it's
generally not a fun task.

OTOH "reasonably priced" gear is well (or at least better) documented,
supported by a company you have at least heard of, and sells for a low
price.

So I agree, you can find a "reasonably priced" unit for the same cost as
a "cheap" one, if you shop well, as you pointed out.

Somewhere on the net is a wonderful pictorial listing of a lot of video
capture cards, with info about what chipsets they use etc., but of
course you may have to have bought the unit to be able to use that
guide.

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Re: XvMC and libmpeg2 to be dropped in 0.25 [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Raymond Wagner <raymond@wagnerrp.com>wrote:

> Intel graphics are perfectly usable. If benchmark websites are to be
> believed, the X4500s should have plenty of power to use the OpenGL renderer,
> and the GMA HD units in i3 and i5 processors are actually comparable to the
> nVidia chips in ION systems.
>
> VA-API is only supported for the X4500HD/MHD, GMA HD and GMA 500 chipsets.
> Most people with existing Intel systems will have GMA 950, X3100, or X4500
> (non-HD) chipsets. None of these are supported by VA-API. Of the systems
> that are supported, the X4500HD and GMA HD chipsets are only found in high
> end systems, which are likely to already be able to decode everything using
> the software decoders, making VA-API nice but unnecessary. The only systems
> that will be made usable through VA-API are low end GMA 500 based ones.


For the record, I have a Celeron based sub-light notebook with a X4500MHD
chipset. The CPU doesn't even come close to decoding HD content on its own,
so I am definitely hoping for VA-API support in the future so that I can use
it to watch TV and recordings.