Mailing List Archive

My schedule got deleted on upgrade!
Ouch! I just did a yum update on my FC6 install, which upgraded Myth
to mythtv-backend-0.20-154.fc6.at, and after that all my scheduled
recordings went away!!!

Is this a known problem?

Which database table are they stored in?

I would really like to get this fixed in the next couple of hours so I'm
set up for tonight.

Thanks.
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
David Kramer wrote:
> Ouch! I just did a yum update on my FC6 install, which upgraded Myth
> to mythtv-backend-0.20-154.fc6.at, and after that all my scheduled
> recordings went away!!!
>
> Is this a known problem?
>
> Which database table are they stored in?
>
> I would really like to get this fixed in the next couple of hours so I'm
> set up for tonight.

OK, answering my own post, because I see what happened. And it sucked.
And I want others to know about it.

My kernel got updated, along with all my mythtv packages. The ivtv
packages has the kernel version in it, but when you install a new
kernel, it doesn't upgrade ivtv. So when I rebooted, ivtv didn't load,
and mythbackend must have said "Oh, that card doesn't exist anymore.
Let me remove all it's programming"!! DOH!!

Is this really a desirable "feature"? Can't it leave them in but
disabled or something?

Fortunately, I have a system backup from just 10 days ago, so I only
needed to restore that and make a few changes.
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
David Kramer wrote:
> David Kramer wrote:
>
>> Ouch! I just did a yum update on my FC6 install, which upgraded Myth
>> to mythtv-backend-0.20-154.fc6.at, and after that all my scheduled
>> recordings went away!!!
>>
>> Is this a known problem?
>>
>> Which database table are they stored in?
>>
>> I would really like to get this fixed in the next couple of hours so I'm
>> set up for tonight.
>>
>
> OK, answering my own post, because I see what happened. And it sucked.
> And I want others to know about it.
>
> My kernel got updated, along with all my mythtv packages. The ivtv
> packages has the kernel version in it, but when you install a new
> kernel, it doesn't upgrade ivtv. So when I rebooted, ivtv didn't load,
> and mythbackend must have said "Oh, that card doesn't exist anymore.
> Let me remove all it's programming"!! DOH!!
>
> Is this really a desirable "feature"? Can't it leave them in but
> disabled or something?
>
> Fortunately, I have a system backup from just 10 days ago, so I only
> needed to restore that and make a few changes.
>
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Q:_I_upgraded_X.2C_Y.2C_and_Z_and_now_everything_is_broken.__Help.21

Kevin
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On 3/25/07, David Kramer <david@thekramers.net> wrote:
> David Kramer wrote:
> > Ouch! I just did a yum update on my FC6 install, which upgraded Myth
> > to mythtv-backend-0.20-154.fc6.at, and after that all my scheduled
> > recordings went away!!!
> >
> > Is this a known problem?
> >
> > Which database table are they stored in?
> >
> > I would really like to get this fixed in the next couple of hours so I'm
> > set up for tonight.
>
> OK, answering my own post, because I see what happened. And it sucked.
> And I want others to know about it.
>
> My kernel got updated, along with all my mythtv packages. The ivtv
> packages has the kernel version in it, but when you install a new
> kernel, it doesn't upgrade ivtv. So when I rebooted, ivtv didn't load,
> and mythbackend must have said "Oh, that card doesn't exist anymore.
> Let me remove all it's programming"!! DOH!!
>
> Is this really a desirable "feature"? Can't it leave them in but
> disabled or something?
>


You are confusing the recording schedule with the database that stores
what you WANT to record.

It IS proper for it to delete everything from its upcoming recordings
if your video source is gone as it can't record them! If you readd
the video source and then restart myth the scheduler will run again
and re-add them to the upcoming recordings list.

I had the same thing happen when I left tzap running on one of my 2
DVB-T cards and then started mythtv. Suddenly I had about 15
conflicts that weren't going to record! I stopped myth, killed the
tzap that was using the card, and then restarted myth. On startup it
fixed everything up.
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On 03/24/2007 09:14 PM, Bill Williamson wrote:
> On 3/25/07, David Kramer <david@thekramers.net> wrote:
>
>> David Kramer wrote:
>>
>>> Ouch! I just did a yum update on my FC6 install, which upgraded Myth
>>> to mythtv-backend-0.20-154.fc6.at, and after that all my scheduled
>>> recordings went away!!!
>>>
>>> Is this a known problem?
>>>
>>> Which database table are they stored in?
>>>
>>> I would really like to get this fixed in the next couple of hours so I'm
>>> set up for tonight.
>>>
>> OK, answering my own post, because I see what happened. And it sucked.
>> And I want others to know about it.
>>
>> My kernel got updated, along with all my mythtv packages. The ivtv
>> packages has the kernel version in it, but when you install a new
>> kernel, it doesn't upgrade ivtv. So when I rebooted, ivtv didn't load,
>> and mythbackend must have said "Oh, that card doesn't exist anymore.
>> Let me remove all it's programming"!! DOH!!
>>
>> Is this really a desirable "feature"? Can't it leave them in but
>> disabled or something?
> You are confusing the recording schedule with the database that stores
> what you WANT to record.
>
> It IS proper for it to delete everything from its upcoming recordings
> if your video source is gone as it can't record them! If you readd
> the video source and then restart myth the scheduler will run again
> and re-add them to the upcoming recordings list.

If your capture card/drivers change, you'll need to delete and re-add
capture cards /and/ video sources. You should also use the Delete All
buttons to delete them; otherwise, you'll leave old data there that will
likely cause problems.

But, Bill is right. Fix the drivers/capture cards/video sources and all
will be well.

Mike
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
Bill Williamson wrote:
> You are confusing the recording schedule with the database that stores
> what you WANT to record.

I see. So what table stores what I WANT to record? I'm looking at
http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Database_Schema
but it's not jumping out at me.


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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On 3/25/07, Michael T. Dean <mtdean@thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> If your capture card/drivers change, you'll need to delete and re-add
> capture cards /and/ video sources. You should also use the Delete All
> buttons to delete them; otherwise, you'll leave old data there that will
> likely cause problems.
>
> But, Bill is right. Fix the drivers/capture cards/video sources and all
> will be well.

The same also applies to this situation. The beauty of mythtv is that
if you say "record the simpsons on all channels," and change what
you're using as an input (even changing from cable to satellite, etc)
then your shows will quite happily reschedule. The ONLY ones that
don't are channel specific ones, but you can manage to hand-massage
those.
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On Saturday 24 March 2007 23:11, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
> If your capture card/drivers change, you'll need to delete and re-add
> capture cards /and/ video sources. You should also use the Delete All
> buttons to delete them; otherwise, you'll leave old data there that will
> likely cause problems.

If by this you mean that you've got to assign video sources to input
connections using the Input Connections section of mythtv-setup, I agree. If
by this you mean you must delete and then re-create all your video sources
using the Video Sources section of mythtv-setup, then please elaborate. I've
left my Video Sources in place through all sorts of experimentation with my
video input cards and I've seen no problems that have been obviously
traceable to this practice. Of course, it's possible that some of the
problems I have had have had this practice as a cause and I just don't
realize that fact. If this is the case, I'd like to know what sorts of
problems I'm likely to see when I fail to delete and then re-create video
sources.

--
Rod Smith
http://www.rodsbooks.com
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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On 03/25/2007 11:45 AM, Rod Smith wrote:
> On Saturday 24 March 2007 23:11, Michael T. Dean wrote:
>
>> If your capture card/drivers change, you'll need to delete and re-add
>> capture cards /and/ video sources. You should also use the Delete All
>> buttons to delete them; otherwise, you'll leave old data there that will
>> likely cause problems.
> If by this you mean that you've got to assign video sources to input
> connections using the Input Connections section of mythtv-setup, I agree. If
> by this you mean you must delete and then re-create all your video sources
> using the Video Sources section of mythtv-setup, then please elaborate.

Basically, if you need to change your video source, the best approach is
to Delete All video sources and re-create video source, input
connections, and channels.* If you need to change your capture
card/drivers, the best approach is to Delete All capture cards /and/
Delete All video sources and re-create capture cards, video sources,
input connections, and channels.**

Why? (a.k.a. "The Delete-All Manifesto")

If someone sends me a MS Word document that I'm supposed to edit and/or
format, the first thing I do is save it as plain text and then edit and
properly format the unformatted version. It's easier to ensure
everything is done properly if you start from a clean state--rather than
trying to undo what's wrong and do what's right. (And, since MS Word >
2.0 has stopped trying to get people to properly format their documents
and instead has changed "auto-whatever" to format docs the incorrect way
most users did with MS Word 2.0 (i.e. Tab-Tab-Tab, Enter-Enter-Enter,
everything default style, ...), you're almost guaranteed that any
document you get is not clean to start with, but that's a whole
different story.)

Likewise, with Myth configuration--which, IMHO, is much more important
than a cleanly-formatted Word document--the best way to ensure
everything is cleanly-configured is to start from a clean state. The
more things change, the more likely starting from a clean configuration
is /required/ (as opposed to just A Good Thing).*** When drivers
change, you can take a chance that the old configuration might work, or
just Delete All and reconfigure. Even if most upgrades work without
issue, once you start MythTV and find there are no available capture
cards, the first thing you should do is Delete All.

Also, recreating video sources, input connections, and channels all
together ensures that the user verifies every aspect of the
configuration. Most questions users have when changes to these areas
don't fix the problem are due to the fact that they missed some small
value that also needed changing--perhaps in a section they thought would
be unaffected.****

Delete All also has the benefit of resetting capture card, video source,
and channel ID's. Therefore, when using Delete All, the OC crowd
doesn't worry about, "I only have 2 cards, so why does the status page
call them, 'encoder 1' and 'encoder 26'?"

Also, using Delete All to reconfigure everything every once in a while
ensures that you remember how to configure the system, so in the event
of catastrophic failure, you're not starting from ground 0. Instead you
have some MythTV configuration knowledge in your toolbox. If you
configure your Myth box, run it for 4 years, lose a DB, and try to set
up a new box, you're likely to spend a lot of time trying to remember
how you had configured it last time.

And, lastly, using Delete All and re-creating everything takes about 2
minutes. Changing miscellaneous values, testing, finding it doesn't
work, changing more values, testing, checking the list archive,
Googling, writing a message to send to the -users list, and waiting for
some kind soul to spend >2 minutes to read your post and write a
response (even if it's just the "Use Delete All to delete your video
sources and then re-create video sources, input connections, and
channels" post), takes a *bit* more than 2 minutes.

I'd even venture to say that it's quite likely to take longer to dig
through the setup screens to find the right value(s) to change while
verifying the existing values than to simply Delete All and
re-configure. The /only/ way it could possibly be faster to change
individual values is if you get /everything/ right the first time (and
if you find things quickly). In the end, though, you took a risk that
saved you some amount of time less than 2 minutes. Not, IMHO, a good
cost-benefit ratio.

If you completely understand all of the requirements of capture
card/video source configuration (i.e. the rules in place in the code) as
well as the linkage of the different pieces of data (both to other data
and to the code), and the effects of changing each piece of data, feel
free to change the occasional value. But, if after I suggest Delete
All, someone tries a different approach "because the 2-minutes to
re-create everything is too tiresome," he/she shouldn't be surprised
when I fail to reply again if there are still issues. ;) I've been in
the MythTV code--through many sections that describe the rules for this
data--and I have a pretty good understanding of the data, but I /still/
use Delete All.

(Well, you /asked/ me to elaborate...)

Mike

* "mythfilldatabase won't add channel X to my video source."
"I deleted a channel, but it keeps coming back."
"I added a channel, I can see it in LiveTV, but when I try to schedule
a recording from that channel, it doesn't record anything."
"My cable company re-numbered all my channels, so I changed them in
the DB/mythtv-setup/MythWeb and now my scheduled recordings don't work."

** Television/Tuner 0

*** Sometimes changes require data modifications that cannot be made
through the mythtv-setup UI. Changing values directly in the database
is always the wrong solution (
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/255378#255378 ), so the
only supported approach is using Delete All and re-configuring from
scratch. (Why not make all values editable directly in MythTV? Hmmm.
Good point. Perhaps MythTV configuration isn't complex enough... ;)

**** "It didn't work the first time, but when I used "Delete
All"/dropped the database and re-did it, it worked!" (Since Myth isn't
changing when someone drops the database, do you want to guess what does
change?)

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Re: My schedule got deleted on upgrade! [ In reply to ]
On Sunday 25 March 2007 02:09 pm, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 03/25/2007 11:45 AM, Rod Smith wrote:
> > On Saturday 24 March 2007 23:11, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> >> If your capture card/drivers change, you'll need to delete and re-add
> >> capture cards /and/ video sources. You should also use the Delete All
> >> buttons to delete them; otherwise, you'll leave old data there that will
> >> likely cause problems.
> >
> > If by this you mean that you've got to assign video sources to input
> > connections using the Input Connections section of mythtv-setup, I agree.
> > If by this you mean you must delete and then re-create all your video
> > sources using the Video Sources section of mythtv-setup, then please
> > elaborate.
>
> Basically, if you need to change your video source, the best approach is
> to Delete All video sources and re-create video source, input
> connections, and channels.* If you need to change your capture
> card/drivers, the best approach is to Delete All capture cards /and/
> Delete All video sources and re-create capture cards, video sources,
> input connections, and channels.**
>
> Why? (a.k.a. "The Delete-All Manifesto")
>
> If someone sends me a MS Word document that I'm supposed to edit and/or
> format, the first thing I do is save it as plain text and then edit and
> properly format the unformatted version. It's easier to ensure
> everything is done properly if you start from a clean state--rather than
> trying to undo what's wrong and do what's right. (And, since MS Word >
> 2.0 has stopped trying to get people to properly format their documents
> and instead has changed "auto-whatever" to format docs the incorrect way
> most users did with MS Word 2.0 (i.e. Tab-Tab-Tab, Enter-Enter-Enter,
> everything default style, ...), you're almost guaranteed that any
> document you get is not clean to start with, but that's a whole
> different story.)
>
> Likewise, with Myth configuration--which, IMHO, is much more important
> than a cleanly-formatted Word document--the best way to ensure
> everything is cleanly-configured is to start from a clean state. The
> more things change, the more likely starting from a clean configuration
> is /required/ (as opposed to just A Good Thing).*** When drivers
> change, you can take a chance that the old configuration might work, or
> just Delete All and reconfigure. Even if most upgrades work without
> issue, once you start MythTV and find there are no available capture
> cards, the first thing you should do is Delete All.
>
> Also, recreating video sources, input connections, and channels all
> together ensures that the user verifies every aspect of the
> configuration. Most questions users have when changes to these areas
> don't fix the problem are due to the fact that they missed some small
> value that also needed changing--perhaps in a section they thought would
> be unaffected.****
>
> Delete All also has the benefit of resetting capture card, video source,
> and channel ID's. Therefore, when using Delete All, the OC crowd
> doesn't worry about, "I only have 2 cards, so why does the status page
> call them, 'encoder 1' and 'encoder 26'?"
>
> Also, using Delete All to reconfigure everything every once in a while
> ensures that you remember how to configure the system, so in the event
> of catastrophic failure, you're not starting from ground 0. Instead you
> have some MythTV configuration knowledge in your toolbox. If you
> configure your Myth box, run it for 4 years, lose a DB, and try to set
> up a new box, you're likely to spend a lot of time trying to remember
> how you had configured it last time.
>
> And, lastly, using Delete All and re-creating everything takes about 2
> minutes. Changing miscellaneous values, testing, finding it doesn't
> work, changing more values, testing, checking the list archive,
> Googling, writing a message to send to the -users list, and waiting for
> some kind soul to spend >2 minutes to read your post and write a
> response (even if it's just the "Use Delete All to delete your video
> sources and then re-create video sources, input connections, and
> channels" post), takes a *bit* more than 2 minutes.
>
> I'd even venture to say that it's quite likely to take longer to dig
> through the setup screens to find the right value(s) to change while
> verifying the existing values than to simply Delete All and
> re-configure. The /only/ way it could possibly be faster to change
> individual values is if you get /everything/ right the first time (and
> if you find things quickly). In the end, though, you took a risk that
> saved you some amount of time less than 2 minutes. Not, IMHO, a good
> cost-benefit ratio.
>
> If you completely understand all of the requirements of capture
> card/video source configuration (i.e. the rules in place in the code) as
> well as the linkage of the different pieces of data (both to other data
> and to the code), and the effects of changing each piece of data, feel
> free to change the occasional value. But, if after I suggest Delete
> All, someone tries a different approach "because the 2-minutes to
> re-create everything is too tiresome," he/she shouldn't be surprised
> when I fail to reply again if there are still issues. ;) I've been in
> the MythTV code--through many sections that describe the rules for this
> data--and I have a pretty good understanding of the data, but I /still/
> use Delete All.
>
> (Well, you /asked/ me to elaborate...)
>
> Mike
>
> * "mythfilldatabase won't add channel X to my video source."
> "I deleted a channel, but it keeps coming back."
> "I added a channel, I can see it in LiveTV, but when I try to schedule
> a recording from that channel, it doesn't record anything."
> "My cable company re-numbered all my channels, so I changed them in
> the DB/mythtv-setup/MythWeb and now my scheduled recordings don't work."
>
> ** Television/Tuner 0
>
> *** Sometimes changes require data modifications that cannot be made
> through the mythtv-setup UI. Changing values directly in the database
> is always the wrong solution (
> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/255378#255378 ), so the
> only supported approach is using Delete All and re-configuring from
> scratch. (Why not make all values editable directly in MythTV? Hmmm.
> Good point. Perhaps MythTV configuration isn't complex enough... ;)
>
> **** "It didn't work the first time, but when I used "Delete
> All"/dropped the database and re-did it, it worked!" (Since Myth isn't
> changing when someone drops the database, do you want to guess what does
> change?)
>

This is starting to sound a lot like another operating system.

"You must reboot for changes to take affect."

Chuck
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