Mailing List Archive

Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining
On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 18:02:02 -0000
"MythTV" <noreply@mythtv.org> wrote:

> #13202: playback doesn't start at begining
> ----------------------------------+------------------------------
> Reporter: w.newell@… | Owner:
> Type: Bug Report - General | Status: closed
> Priority: minor | Milestone: needs_triage
> Component: MythTV - General | Version: 0.28.1
> Severity: low | Resolution: Invalid
> Keywords: | Ticket locked: 0
> ----------------------------------+------------------------------
>
> Comment (by gigem):
>
> Replying to [comment:5 rsiddons]:
> > Most users want to watch programmes that start on or after the
> > scheduled
> time, not the trailers/adverts/waffle that precede it.
>
> I could probably buy that for pre-roll. I definitely can't for
> start- early. When I use start-early, it's because I have better
> knowledge than the guide data or what I want to record. I don't use
> it often, but everytime I do, I gnash my teeth when playback doesn't
> start where I expect/want it.
>

Arguably the rule prescribes what to record, not where playback starts.
I usually have 2 min start-early, 5 min end-late on everything and
rarely look at where the programme falls within that.

But it's a fair point: Myth gets used in different ways.

And you would like to disable it as well.

Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
with this ?

> > The 'Start Early' pre-roll is usually considered as a safety
> > buffer for
> those rare ocassions when programmes start early.
>
> Be careful with your terminology. Start early and pre-roll are very
> different things. Pre-roll is optional, opportunistic time added in
> seconds. Start early is mandatory time added in minutes explicitly
> requested by the user.
>

Good point.

> --
> Ticket URL: <https://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/13202#comment:8>
> MythTV <http://www.mythtv.org>
> MythTV Media Center

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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 10:06:46PM +0000, Roger Siddons wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jan 2018 18:02:02 -0000
> "MythTV" <noreply@mythtv.org> wrote:
>
> > #13202: playback doesn't start at begining
> > ----------------------------------+------------------------------
> > Reporter: w.newell@… | Owner:
> > Type: Bug Report - General | Status: closed
> > Priority: minor | Milestone: needs_triage
> > Component: MythTV - General | Version: 0.28.1
> > Severity: low | Resolution: Invalid
> > Keywords: | Ticket locked: 0
> > ----------------------------------+------------------------------
> >
> > Comment (by gigem):
> >
> > Replying to [comment:5 rsiddons]:
> > > Most users want to watch programmes that start on or after the
> > > scheduled
> > time, not the trailers/adverts/waffle that precede it.
> >
> > I could probably buy that for pre-roll. I definitely can't for
> > start- early. When I use start-early, it's because I have better
> > knowledge than the guide data or what I want to record. I don't use
> > it often, but everytime I do, I gnash my teeth when playback doesn't
> > start where I expect/want it.
> >
>
> Arguably the rule prescribes what to record, not where playback starts.
> I usually have 2 min start-early, 5 min end-late on everything and
> rarely look at where the programme falls within that.
>
> But it's a fair point: Myth gets used in different ways.

I think the accuracy of the guide data is the main factor. With very
few exceptions my guide data is very accurate. About the only time I
every use start-early is when the network puts a short, usually
sponsored, pre-game before a major sporting event. In those cases, I
often want it included as part of the main recording instead of
separately.

> And you would like to disable it as well.
>
> Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
> with this ?

I'm usually in the group opposing new settings, but in this case, I
suppose yes.

David
--
David Engel
david@istwok.net
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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On 01/06/2018 08:57 PM, David Engel wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 10:06:46PM +0000, Roger Siddons wrote:
>> And you would like to disable it as well.
>>
>> Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
>> with this ?
> I'm usually in the group opposing new settings, but in this case, I
> suppose yes.

How about in the Play Group settings (
https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/blob/master/mythtv/libs/libmythtv/playgroup.cpp
)? Then users can assign play groups (including default) to start at
the desired time on a per-recording-rule basis. Or, at least make it a
live setting (that's not buried in the settings pages) that is changed
during playback and remembered. IMHO, making it another setting just
grouped in the main/global settings is just a sign of developers not
knowing (agreeing) what they want the program to do, as opposed to a
setting to allow users to choose how MythTV works for various different
recordings made from various channels (like channels that don't care
about their "unimportant" shows as long as their sporting events are
broadcast in full) and/or on various different days (like days with lots
of earlier-broadcast sports) that may or may not experience delays from
the broadcast.

Note: the Play Group settings include things like the jump/skip amounts
and initial time stretch.

Mike
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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On 07/01/18 13:06, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 01/06/2018 08:57 PM, David Engel wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 10:06:46PM +0000, Roger Siddons wrote:
>>> And you would like to disable it as well.
>>>
>>> Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
>>> with this ?
>> I'm usually in the group opposing new settings, but in this case, I
>> suppose yes.
>
> How about in the Play Group settings (
> https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/blob/master/mythtv/libs/libmythtv/playgroup.cpp
> )?  Then users can assign play groups (including default) to start at
> the desired time on a per-recording-rule basis.  Or, at least make it a
> live setting (that's not buried in the settings pages) that is changed
> during playback and remembered. IMHO, making it another setting just
> grouped in the main/global settings is just a sign of developers not
> knowing (agreeing) what they want the program to do, as opposed to a
> setting to allow users to choose how MythTV works for various different
> recordings made from various channels (like channels that don't care
> about their "unimportant" shows as long as their sporting events are
> broadcast in full) and/or on various different days (like days with lots
> of earlier-broadcast sports) that may or may not experience delays from
> the broadcast.
>
> Note: the Play Group settings include things like the jump/skip amounts
> and initial time stretch.
>
> Mike

It seems to me that this was all chewed over when the 'mythical'
bookmark first appeared. Broadcasters will often not adhere to their
schedules and myth provides jump forward/backward keys. The biggest
problem is understanding what is happening when first encountering the
effect.

John P

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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jan 07, 2018 at 08:06:02AM -0500, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 01/06/2018 08:57 PM, David Engel wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 06, 2018 at 10:06:46PM +0000, Roger Siddons wrote:
> > > And you would like to disable it as well.
> > >
> > > Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
> > > with this ?
> > I'm usually in the group opposing new settings, but in this case, I
> > suppose yes.
>
> How about in the Play Group settings ( https://github.com/MythTV/mythtv/blob/master/mythtv/libs/libmythtv/playgroup.cpp
> )? Then users can assign play groups (including default) to start at the
> desired time on a per-recording-rule basis.

First, I don't really see this as a good choice for play groups, at
least not for my use cases.

Second, I'd rather not touch the existing play group implementation.
It was a mistake. The implementation, not the feature. I have a
better implementation in mind that would allow nearly any playback
setting to be used in a play group. It's not high on my TODO list,
though, so it won't be happeing any time soon.

> Or, at least make it a live
> setting (that's not buried in the settings pages) that is changed during
> playback and remembered.

So burying it in the OSD menu where it can only be enabled after the
fact and only affects future playback starts is any better? If you're
proposing that for all applicable playback settings, I can kind of see
it, but would lead to a very bloated OSD menu.

> IMHO, making it another setting just grouped in the
> main/global settings is just a sign of developers not knowing (agreeing)
> what they want the program to do, as opposed to a setting to allow users to
> choose how MythTV works for various different recordings made from various
> channels (like channels that don't care about their "unimportant" shows as

I see it more as different people using MythTV differently and also
that once a feature gets added, it's very difficult to remove.

Personally, I think this default, mythical bookmark behavior is wholly
unintuitive. I think most reasonable people would expect playback to
start at the start of the recording. When somebody uses the feature
to jump to 5 minutes from the beginning, is that 5 minutes from the
beginning of the recording or 5 minutes from the scheduled program
time?

My preferred solution would be to make it easier to then jump to the
scheduled program time after playback starts. I don't think that's
going to happen. See removing features above. To me, that pretty
much only leaves the option of a new setting.

David

> long as their sporting events are broadcast in full) and/or on various
> different days (like days with lots of earlier-broadcast sports) that may or
> may not experience delays from the broadcast.
>
> Note: the Play Group settings include things like the jump/skip amounts and
> initial time stretch.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
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--
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david@istwok.net
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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:20:13 -0600
David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:

> I have a
> better implementation in mind that would allow nearly any playback
> setting to be used in a play group. It's not high on my TODO list,
> though, so it won't be happeing any time soon.

Even so, it would be interesting to hear any ideas, however rudimentary.

> Personally, I think this default, mythical bookmark behavior is wholly
> unintuitive. I think most reasonable people would expect playback to
> start at the start of the recording. When somebody uses the feature
> to jump to 5 minutes from the beginning, is that 5 minutes from the
> beginning of the recording or 5 minutes from the scheduled program
> time?

I agree. It's useful but users should opt-in to it.

> My preferred solution would be to make it easier to then jump to the
> scheduled program time after playback starts.

Interesting thought.

There's talk of committing https://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12809,
which frees up the bookmark but begs: why is the user limited
to a single bookmark ?
StuartM has talked of per-user bookmarks. A simpler/preliminary version
is to allow multiple bookmarks.
JUMPSTART & JUMPBOOKMARK appear useful but I don't use them because
they're not undo-able and I'll never remember which button they've been
assigned to. Hit the wrong one and you're lost.

Comm-skipping is well-designed. It uses 2 buttons NEXT/PREV, is
undo-able and (briefly) shows the OSD with position, skip distance &
reason.

If manual/user comm-skipping was extended to all/any marks it could
navigate the mythical bookmark, all bookmarks and any future marks.

Auto-commskipping could use mythical bookmark as well as commflags. So
even without commflagging playback would start at the mythical, if
Auto-skip was set (Notify also available). Crucially the OSD would show
what's happening.

Essentially:
- Comm-skipping is re-branded as mark-skipping.
- More types of marks can be used/handled with OSD feedback. All skips
are reversible.
- The existing Auto/Notify/No skip setting would control where playback
started
- Non-commflaggers get to use the existing commskip UI. Currently it
does nothing for them.
- Commflaggers will stop at bookmarks/other marks when manually
skipping. That could be useful. If not, just skip again.
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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On 07/01/18 01:57, David Engel wrote:

>
> I think the accuracy of the guide data is the main factor. With very
> few exceptions my guide data is very accurate. About the only time I
> every use start-early is when the network puts a short, usually
> sponsored, pre-game before a major sporting event. In those cases, I
> often want it included as part of the main recording instead of
> separately.

The accuracy of the guide data is completely irrelevant if the stations
do not stick to it. Australian broadcasters are notorious for this.

>
>> And you would like to disable it as well.
>>
>> Shall I just add a simple setting until we work out where we're going
>> with this ?
>
> I'm usually in the group opposing new settings, but in this case, I
> suppose yes.
>

This would be a good idea.


Regards
Stuart

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Re: Ticket #13202: playback doesn't start at begining [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jan 07, 2018 at 11:43:29PM +0000, Roger Siddons wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jan 2018 12:20:13 -0600
> David Engel <david@istwok.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a
> > better implementation in mind that would allow nearly any playback
> > setting to be used in a play group. It's not high on my TODO list,
> > though, so it won't be happeing any time soon.
>
> Even so, it would be interesting to hear any ideas, however rudimentary.

The central idea is to use the normal settings table and flag play
group values in some way. For example, appending "#PlayGroupName" to
the setting name or using "#PlayGroupName" as the hostname. The
latter would ensure that play group settings are not host specific.

The tricky part would be how to present this in the settings. The old
settings code was not conducive to doing anything(*). I'm hoping the
new, mythui-baase, tree-structured settings code is. For example,
havigate to a normal, playback setting, press MENU and choose "Add
Play Group Value".

(*)Someone, I think John Poet, but I'm not absolutely sure, did
actually implement a scheme for allowing play group versions of any
playback setting. I didn't think it was maintainable, so it never
made it to git.

> > Personally, I think this default, mythical bookmark behavior is wholly
> > unintuitive. I think most reasonable people would expect playback to
> > start at the start of the recording. When somebody uses the feature
> > to jump to 5 minutes from the beginning, is that 5 minutes from the
> > beginning of the recording or 5 minutes from the scheduled program
> > time?
>
> I agree. It's useful but users should opt-in to it.
>
> > My preferred solution would be to make it easier to then jump to the
> > scheduled program time after playback starts.
>
> Interesting thought.
>
> There's talk of committing https://code.mythtv.org/trac/ticket/12809,
> which frees up the bookmark but begs: why is the user limited
> to a single bookmark ?
> StuartM has talked of per-user bookmarks. A simpler/preliminary version
> is to allow multiple bookmarks.
> JUMPSTART & JUMPBOOKMARK appear useful but I don't use them because
> they're not undo-able and I'll never remember which button they've been
> assigned to. Hit the wrong one and you're lost.
>
> Comm-skipping is well-designed. It uses 2 buttons NEXT/PREV, is
> undo-able and (briefly) shows the OSD with position, skip distance &
> reason.
>
> If manual/user comm-skipping was extended to all/any marks it could
> navigate the mythical bookmark, all bookmarks and any future marks.
>
> Auto-commskipping could use mythical bookmark as well as commflags. So
> even without commflagging playback would start at the mythical, if
> Auto-skip was set (Notify also available). Crucially the OSD would show
> what's happening.
>
> Essentially:
> - Comm-skipping is re-branded as mark-skipping.
> - More types of marks can be used/handled with OSD feedback. All skips
> are reversible.
> - The existing Auto/Notify/No skip setting would control where playback
> started
> - Non-commflaggers get to use the existing commskip UI. Currently it
> does nothing for them.
> - Commflaggers will stop at bookmarks/other marks when manually
> skipping. That could be useful. If not, just skip again.

Hmm, might work. Jumping around to find the right mark might get a
tedious if there are lots of marks. There might also need to be a
popup listing all of the marks so the user can more easily choose the
right one.

David
--
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david@istwok.net
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