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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
> #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
>
>
> Comment(by danielk):
>
> Just for the record, the program guide groups channels with the same
> callsign iff they have the same channel number. Take for example WABC-DT,
> it is listed as 7-1 from OTA and 1071 from CATV. The reason the channel is
> listed under both channel number in the program guide is only so that if
> you remember that the channel number is 1071 or 7-1 you will find it where
> you expect it in the ordered list. As far as MythTV is concerned they are
> the same channel, if you set up a manual recording on 1071 it is just as
> likely that it will be recorded on 7-1 as 1071.
>
>

For the benefit of the OP, can we go a step farther and say that Myth
requires that any channels with different programming content must have
unique callsigns? The OP does not have his system set up that way
("I've been unable to browse listings for channels with duplicate
callsigns, even though they have different programming.").

The reason I'm asking first is because of [13407] (
http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/13407 ). Regarding that change,
Daniel, are we really saying that blank callsigns are allowed in a valid
MythTV configuration or is the extra code just to try to prevent
failures even with broken configurations? After all, channel.callsign
is a NOT NULL column, so officially allowing the empty string sounds
like extra work with no real benefit. (Not to say trying to recover
even with broken configs is bad, but I just want to ensure I don't pass
on bad info when I tell people we need unique callsigns for channels
with different content.)

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 14:24 -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
> > #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
> For the benefit of the OP, can we go a step farther and say that Myth
> requires that any channels with different programming content must have
> unique callsigns? The OP does not have his system set up that way
> ("I've been unable to browse listings for channels with duplicate
> callsigns, even though they have different programming.").

Pretty much yes. If you are going to have callsigns they
must be unique, the workarounds in MythTV are mostly for
blank callsigns.

> The reason I'm asking first is because of [13407] (
> http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/13407 ). Regarding that change,
> Daniel, are we really saying that blank callsigns are allowed in a valid
> MythTV configuration or is the extra code just to try to prevent
> failures even with broken configurations?

It is extra code to avoid some avoidable failures when there
are blank callsigns. Not all problems are avoidable when you
have blank callsigns because there can be a real ambiguity as
to which channels are equivalent.

-- Daniel

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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
Michael T. Dean wrote:
> On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
>> #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
>>
>>
>> Comment(by danielk):
>>
>> Just for the record, the program guide groups channels with the
>> same callsign iff they have the same channel number. Take for
>> example WABC-DT, it is listed as 7-1 from OTA and 1071 from CATV.
>> The reason the channel is listed under both channel number in the
>> program guide is only so that if you remember that the channel
>> number is 1071 or 7-1 you will find it where you expect it in the
>> ordered list. As far as MythTV is concerned they are the same
>> channel, if you set up a manual recording on 1071 it is just as

s/channel/station/ # from the same building on different wires

>> likely that it will be recorded on 7-1 as 1071.

But it is deterministic and predictable. See:
http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-12.html#ss12.6

> For the benefit of the OP, can we go a step farther and say that Myth
> requires that any channels with different programming content must
> have unique callsigns?

No, absolutely not. This is one of the pillars of confusion
between channels (frequencies) and stations (buildings).

People often want to jump to the conclusion that if two channels
primarily carry programming from the same station, it therefore
follows that the listings are identical. This is not true. The
confusion is fueled in cases where a grabber grabs the listings
for more than one source from the same web page. In that case the
listings happen to be identical but that does not have to be true
and in many cases, it is not.

+----------+--------+---------+----------+---------+
| sourceid | chanid | channum | callsign | xmltvid |
+----------+--------+---------+----------+---------+
| 1 | 1003 | 3 | KVBC | 10790 |
| 2 | 2123 | 123 | KVBC | 21661 |
+----------+--------+---------+----------+---------+

Here I have my local NBC affiliate available from analog and
digital cable. Both show programming originating from near the
corner of Las Vegas Blvd. and Foremaster. I can record "The
Apprentice" from either of two s-video inputs from STBs or any
of four coax cables connected to tuner inputs. However, on Sunday
afternoon, "Ebert & Roper" is shown on coax but the STBs show
"Nevada Newsmakers" on ch 123 (and during the first half of Leno
on weeknights). While I can record "Deal or No Deal" broadcast
from Foremaster from the channels for either source, I can only
record "Ebert & Roper" from channel 3 on Sunday afternoons.

Leading up to the 'new' scheduler in 0.15.x, there were several
examples of stations that are carried part time, local programming
in early evening/primetime, infomercials over night, and so on.

For a more extreme example, let's take CNN from Atlanta GA. On
My Cox cable channel 20 in Las Vegas, NV I see "Anderson Cooper
360" an 7pm PDT. At the same moment, someone in Ohio is watching
AC360 on 53 CNN at 10pm EDT. The schedule for CNN from Atlanta
does me no good. What I need to know is what Cox cable in LV
will be showing on its channel 20.

TV listings are per channel.

> The OP does not have his system set up that
> way ("I've been unable to browse listings for channels with duplicate
> callsigns, even though they have different programming.").

This may be correct or a misunderstanding. If these two channels
carry programming primarily from the same station but have some
differences in their individual schedulers then I'd suggest
keeping the callsigns the same and using a different cosmetic
channum so the two channels (frequencies from a source) can be
distinguished.

For example, my local channel 6 may have some interference,
however, it appears that for the STB, this channel is sent as
digital data for the STB to convert back to NTSC. The picture
is much clearer so I prefer recording from source 2. But the
channel number is still in the analog range where as the digital
cable KVBC is given a number of 123. Therefore, I've changed the
channum for 2006 to "106" to show me that this is the digital
cable version. This isn't really 106 and the tuning info in
"freqid" is still set to "6" but I did this in order to show me
the distinction between analog KVCW and digital KVCW so I can
tell which source was chosen for recording.

mysql> select sourceid,chanid,channum,freqid,callsign,xmltvid from channel where callsign='KVCW';
+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+
| sourceid | chanid | channum | freqid | callsign | xmltvid |
+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+
| 1 | 1006 | 6 | 6 | KVCW | 10456 |
| 2 | 2006 | 106 | 6 | KVCW | 10456 |
+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+

-- bjm

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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 06/05/07, Daniel Kristjansson <danielk@cuymedia.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 14:24 -0400, Michael T. Dean wrote:
> > The reason I'm asking first is because of [13407] (
> > http://svn.mythtv.org/trac/changeset/13407 ). Regarding that change,
> > Daniel, are we really saying that blank callsigns are allowed in a valid
> > MythTV configuration or is the extra code just to try to prevent
> > failures even with broken configurations?
>
> It is extra code to avoid some avoidable failures when there
> are blank callsigns. Not all problems are avoidable when you
> have blank callsigns because there can be a real ambiguity as
> to which channels are equivalent.

Should mythtvsetup not check for blank callsigns before it will allow
a user to exit and/or start mythbackend? As a somewhat experienced
user, it seems allowing a user to start mythbackend with an already
borked channel configuration is a very bad idea. If enforcing the
presence of a callsign for each channel is not deemed necessary, in
what circumstances is the absence of a callsign valid? Doesn't this
break the scheduler?

Wouldn't the introduction of some rudimentary checking in mythtvsetup,
such as for:

i) locating channels unassociated with video sources,
ii) locating card inputs unassociated with capture cards,
iii) locating listings information unassociated with video sources, and
iv) locating video sources unassociated with card inputs (this could
be due to temporary disabling of an input connection)

be of significant help to stop users from running broken
configurations in the first place?

Nick
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 13:17 -0700, Bruce Markey wrote:
> Michael T. Dean wrote:
> > On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
> >> #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
> >>
> >>
> >> Comment(by danielk):
> >>
> >> Just for the record, the program guide groups channels with the
> >> same callsign iff they have the same channel number. Take for
> >> example WABC-DT, it is listed as 7-1 from OTA and 1071 from CATV.
> >> The reason the channel is listed under both channel number in the
> >> program guide is only so that if you remember that the channel
> >> number is 1071 or 7-1 you will find it where you expect it in the
> >> ordered list. As far as MythTV is concerned they are the same
> >> channel, if you set up a manual recording on 1071 it is just as
>
> s/channel/station/ # from the same building on different wires

Oops, I used the colloquial 'channel', I meant 'station'.

I'm not sure "from the same building on different wires" helps
people understand the difference though. In my region the local
PBS station runs 9 'stations', each with different callsigns:
WNET 13.0 (13 VHF analog)
WNET-HD 13.1 (61 UHF digital)
WNET-SD 13.2 (61 UHF digital)
WNET-13 13.3 (61 UHF digital)
WLIW 21.0 (21 UHF analog)
WLIW-HD 21.1 (22 UHF digital)
WLIW-SD 21.2 (22 UHF digital)
WLIW-3 21.3 (22 UHF digital)
WLIW-4 21.4 (22 UHF digital)

I forget what 3 & 4 on WLIW are, I believe they are two children's
programming streams. Anyway, these are all programmed
by the same people in the same building but have completely
different schedules and different programming as well. These
are all available on different channels depending on how you
get them, OTA, cable or satellite. Each channel for each
'station' is identical, no matter how you get it because
WNET/WLIW is a "must carry". (FYI Both those HD stations
are craptastic, 1080i with enough bitrate to carry 480i).

The same is the case for the News Corporation, it has
4 'stations' in NYC with different callsigns:
WNYW 5.0 (5 VHF analog)
WNYW DT 5.1 (44 UHF digital) and 9.2 (38 UHF digital)
WWOR 9.0 (9 VHF analog)
WWOR DT 9.1 (38 UHF digital) and 5.2 (44 UHF digital)

In this case channel 5.1 and channel 9.2 are both the 'station'
"WNYW DT", and channel 9.1 and channel 5.2 are both the
'station' "WWOR DT". These are all programmed out of the same
building but each callsign corresponds to a different set of
programming, though in this case the analog stations are mostly
just low-def versions of the digital stations. These stations
are _not_ "must carry" stations so if you tune into them using
cable channel there may well be a different set of ads. Also
you can see in this example that even OTA, frequency != channel
and frequency != callsign, this is of course even more true
when you start mixing OTA with cable or satellite sources.

> >> likely that it will be recorded on 7-1 as 1071.
> But it is deterministic and predictable. See:
> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-12.html#ss12.6
Yep.

> People often want to jump to the conclusion that if two channels
> primarily carry programming from the same station, it therefore
> follows that the listings are identical. This is not true.
<snip, case of different programming on same callsign>

Hmm, if this is the case then there are two bugs we need to fix.
First, mythweb should use the same grouping as the program guide
(channum, callsign). Second, manual recordings should be based
on the channel not the station (currently if you create a manual
recording selecting "1071, WABC-HD" and MythTV has a "7-1
WABC-HD" you can end up with the wrong one being recorded.
(I ran into this with a couple FTA DVB-S channels, one without
listings, the other day.)

I also have to change those smarts I just added in the multirec
branch to check that the current programs are identical before
substituting one WABC for the other WABC when the desired one
of them is on an unavailable tuner and they have a different
channum, I thought that 'callsign' == 'programming stream
aside from commercials' in MythTV.

-- Daniel

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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 07/05/07, Daniel Kristjansson <danielk@cuymedia.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 13:17 -0700, Bruce Markey wrote:
> > People often want to jump to the conclusion that if two channels
> > primarily carry programming from the same station, it therefore
> > follows that the listings are identical. This is not true.
> <snip, case of different programming on same callsign>
>
> Hmm, if this is the case then there are two bugs we need to fix.
> First, mythweb should use the same grouping as the program guide
> (channum, callsign).

As I predominantly use mythweb for scheduling, I've been following
this issue closely and opened ticket #2036 as there are still issues.
xris' group-by-callsign patch was applied in r13137, but there are
still issues in displaying results for programs on stations available
on >1 video source (#2036, #2070, #2288).

> Second, manual recordings should be based
> on the channel not the station (currently if you create a manual
> recording selecting "1071, WABC-HD" and MythTV has a "7-1
> WABC-HD" you can end up with the wrong one being recorded.
> (I ran into this with a couple FTA DVB-S channels, one without
> listings, the other day.)

One area of confusion I see regarding channels vs stations is that I
raised in ticket #3204. There does not seem to be a consistent display
of program status where programs could be recorded on >1 video source.
It seems to be random as to which "channel's" listings data is shown,
and consequently, whether the listings information or list shows
rsWillRecord or rsOtherShowing.

Nick
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 05/06/2007 07:50 PM, Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
> I thought that 'callsign' == 'programming stream
> aside from commercials' in MythTV.

That was the impression I had gotten, too. However, it seems I was very
wrong.

So, basically, I'm reading this to mean that a "callsign" to MythTV is
really nothing more than a simplistic "Channel Group" in that it tells
the scheduler for a "channel" recording, use any channel with this
callsign iff the programming content is also a match.

(Not that I'm proposing it be done, because I don't think there's enough
utility in the approach (implied "for me"), but to help me
understand...) If that's the case, we could expand the idea to allow
user-defined "channel groups" so that users could specify a list of
channel ID's as a channel group. Then, when creating "channel"
recording rules, they would pick an appropriate channel group (and "any
channel" rules may actually be channel rules using the always-defined
"All" channel group--assuming appropriate priority transitions are made
to achieve current scheduler functionality). The "overloaded" callsign
could then be retired from scheduler grouping and instead become just
another type of name (i.e. short channel name).

And, in that world, non-US users wouldn't complain about
callsigns--which mean nothing to them--having hidden meaning in Myth.
And, users would be able to create as many channel groups as desired to
allow specifying exactly which channels may be used to record programs.
The channel groups could also be used for UI purposes to allow multiple
independent favorites lists (i.e. Science, Movies, Kids, ...). Or
whatever...

BTW, if this is a desirable approach, I may eventually put some effort
into it, but it is probably on the bottom 5% of my MythTV TODO list.
I'm also not asking devs to spend their time working on it as there are
many other useful things that may make for more-useful changes. (Oh,
and xris, sorry for saying that something that could be useful for
favorites may not be worth implementing. :)

Mike
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 05/06/2007 08:48 PM, Nick Morrott wrote:
> One area of confusion I see regarding channels vs stations is that I
> raised in ticket #3204. There does not seem to be a consistent display
> of program status where programs could be recorded on >1 video source.
> It seems to be random as to which "channel's" listings data is shown,
> and consequently, whether the listings information or list shows
> rsWillRecord or rsOtherShowing.

I think MythWeb will be fixed once the rules we want have been defined. :)

(I encouraged the use of group by callsign, so I'll make sure it's all
fixed once we have real concrete definition of how it's supposed to work.)

Mike

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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 07/05/07, Michael T. Dean <mtdean@thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> On 05/06/2007 07:50 PM, Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
> > I thought that 'callsign' == 'programming stream
> > aside from commercials' in MythTV.
>
> That was the impression I had gotten, too. However, it seems I was very
> wrong.
>
> So, basically, I'm reading this to mean that a "callsign" to MythTV is
> really nothing more than a simplistic "Channel Group" in that it tells
> the scheduler for a "channel" recording, use any channel with this
> callsign iff the programming content is also a match.

Coming from a (tired!) non-US user living in a TV Nation where
callsigns are not used, this is exactly how I have come to understand
the purpose of callsign in MythTV from posts by bjm and empirically.
For scheduling purposes, treat all channels with the same callsign as
the same. For EPG display, treat all channels having the same callsign
AND channum the same.

As I use the same listings data for common channels on all sources
(data from tv_grab_uk_rt) it seems obvious for my configuration that
any channel having the same xmltvid should also have the same
callsign, because to MythTV, the channels *are* identical, just on
different video sources. In the UK, we don't have the same
national/local affiliates/syndication differencees except for
news/weather, which is taken care of through the listings.

Nick
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 07/05/07, Michael T. Dean <mtdean@thirdcontact.com> wrote:
> On 05/06/2007 08:48 PM, Nick Morrott wrote:
> > One area of confusion I see regarding channels vs stations is that I
> > raised in ticket #3204. There does not seem to be a consistent display
> > of program status where programs could be recorded on >1 video source.
> > It seems to be random as to which "channel's" listings data is shown,
> > and consequently, whether the listings information or list shows
> > rsWillRecord or rsOtherShowing.
>
> I think MythWeb will be fixed once the rules we want have been defined. :)

The above ticket is for mythfrontend. MythWeb is another story entirely!

> (I encouraged the use of group by callsign, so I'll make sure it's all
> fixed once we have real concrete definition of how it's supposed to work.)

I was under the (false?) impression that the use of callsign was
concrete now, in terms of how the scheduler and EPG display use it, at
least from the detailed -users mailing list posts from bjm. I think I
was just wanting the operation of mythfrontend and mythweb to be
consistent with my empirical observations of the scheduler and
configuration the channels on my multiple sources :)

Nick
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 13:17 -0700, Bruce Markey wrote:
>> Michael T. Dean wrote:
>>> On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
>>>> #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Comment(by danielk):
>>>>
>>>> Just for the record, the program guide groups channels with the
>>>> same callsign iff they have the same channel number. Take for
>>>> example WABC-DT, it is listed as 7-1 from OTA and 1071 from CATV.
>>>> The reason the channel is listed under both channel number in the
>>>> program guide is only so that if you remember that the channel
>>>> number is 1071 or 7-1 you will find it where you expect it in the
>>>> ordered list. As far as MythTV is concerned they are the same
>>>> channel, if you set up a manual recording on 1071 it is just as
>> s/channel/station/ # from the same building on different wires
>
> Oops, I used the colloquial 'channel', I meant 'station'.
>
> I'm not sure "from the same building on different wires" helps
> people understand the difference though. In my region the local
> PBS station runs 9 'stations', each with different callsigns:
> WNET 13.0 (13 VHF analog)
> WNET-HD 13.1 (61 UHF digital)
> WNET-SD 13.2 (61 UHF digital)
> WNET-13 13.3 (61 UHF digital)
> WLIW 21.0 (21 UHF analog)
> WLIW-HD 21.1 (22 UHF digital)
> WLIW-SD 21.2 (22 UHF digital)
> WLIW-3 21.3 (22 UHF digital)
> WLIW-4 21.4 (22 UHF digital)

PBS is a network that feeds its affiliates. /WNET$/ and /WLIW$/
are station. 13.n and 21.n are all channels. "PBS" proper
is not fed to homes directly but programming is sent via
satellite to their affiliates for broadcast over the air
or on a channel from a service.

Back to CNN. This is a network that is sent to affiliates.
In my area, Cox cable is essentially the affiliate that is
broadcasting the CNN feed over channel 20 and CNNHN on 22.
However, the local CBS affiliate prepares 5 minutes of local
news for CNNHN that is shown at :25 and :55. Even though these
are not shown in the listings as separate programming, the
"CNNHN" shown in Las Vegas is different than the CNNHN for PDT
in Los Angeles, Reno or Phoenix.

> I forget what 3 & 4 on WLIW are, I believe they are two children's
> programming streams. Anyway, these are all programmed
> by the same people in the same building but have completely
> different schedules and different programming as well. These

True, and therefore these have different callsigns though
the string of characters look similar and there may be other
similarities. However, a different broadcast license from the
FCC to broadcast other programming over a different assigned
frequency with a different station identification is a different
"station". I never said that one building can only broadcast
one station =). HBO may be even grey-er.

+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+
| sourceid | chanid | channum | freqid | callsign | xmltvid |
+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+
| 2 | 2200 | 200 | 200 | HBOP | 10244 |
| 2 | 2202 | 202 | 202 | HBOSIGP | 16576 |
| 2 | 2203 | 203 | 203 | HBOFP | 16619 |
| 2 | 2204 | 204 | 204 | HBOCP | 18430 |
| 2 | 2205 | 205 | 205 | HBOZP | 18432 |
| 2 | 2210 | 210 | 210 | HBO | 10240 |
| 2 | 2211 | 211 | 211 | HBO2 | 10241 |
| 2 | 2212 | 212 | 212 | HBOSIG | 10243 |
| 2 | 2213 | 213 | 213 | HBOF | 16585 |
+----------+--------+---------+--------+----------+---------+

I have nine HBO* channels. There are five different sequences
of programming. 200 HBO is the EDT broadcast and 210 HBOP is
the same sequence delayed by three hours. Again, the cable
provider is the affiliate broadcasting these feeds over cable
channels. I could, for example, set the callsigns to be the
same so that a kChannelRecord (note that this is mis-named =)
rule would match the 7pm showing on 200 and the 10pm showing
on 210 of the same program. In practice, I wouldn't do this
because I'd use FindOne for a movie on HBO which doesn't care
about chanid or callsign. If the same movie might also have
a censored version on basic cable, I might use the Custom Record
example "AND channel.callsign LIKE 'HBO%'". This would match
any of the nine HBOs but exclude all other showings.

> are all available on different channels depending on how you
> get them, OTA, cable or satellite. Each channel for each
> 'station' is identical, no matter how you get it because

I can't parse the phrase "Each channel for each 'station' is
identical". Each channel is a unique piece of information for
a receiving device to tune to a potential broadcast signal. A
station broadcasts content over assigned channels. However, I
infer that you intended to say something like 'the content from
the station is identical for every channel that carries the
station'.

> WNET/WLIW is a "must carry". (FYI Both those HD stations
> are craptastic, 1080i with enough bitrate to carry 480i).
>
> The same is the case for the News Corporation, it has
> 4 'stations' in NYC with different callsigns:
> WNYW 5.0 (5 VHF analog)
> WNYW DT 5.1 (44 UHF digital) and 9.2 (38 UHF digital)
> WWOR 9.0 (9 VHF analog)
> WWOR DT 9.1 (38 UHF digital) and 5.2 (44 UHF digital)
>
> In this case channel 5.1 and channel 9.2 are both the 'station'
> "WNYW DT", and channel 9.1 and channel 5.2 are both the
> 'station' "WWOR DT". These are all programmed out of the same
> building but each callsign corresponds to a different set of
> programming, though in this case the analog stations are mostly
> just low-def versions of the digital stations. These stations
> are _not_ "must carry" stations so if you tune into them using
> cable channel there may well be a different set of ads. Also
> you can see in this example that even OTA, frequency != channel
> and frequency != callsign, this is of course even more true

I agree that frequency != callsign. I disagree that frequency !=
channel. A channel is the frequency (or ID) for a receiving
device to 'tune' to in order to receive a broadcast signal. The
origin of the programming that is broadcast over that frequency
(if any) is a different issue. Two or more channels may carry
programming from the same station and that programming may be
identical but they are still two (or more) different frequencies
which the receiving device may tune to. 9.0, 9 VHF analog, 9.1,
38 UHF digital, 5.2, and 44 UHF digital are six examples of
channels. If I tried tuning devices to these six channels in
southern Nevada, most would have snow or no signal and none
would show WWOR content but the receiving device could be
instructed to tune to that carrier frequency. Therefore, each
frequency is a channel (regardless of the content sent over
that channel).

My point is that we fall into the trap of saying that 'IFL
Battleground is on 9' and '9.0 is the exact same channel'.
Well, it is WWOR that broadcasts IFL and tuning an NTSC device
to channel 9 in New York should show the WWOR content. 9.0
would be entirely different tuning information for an HDTV
device to determine which packets to decode in order to see
the content sent from WWOR.

For myth, we need to know that if a New Yorker wants to watch
IFL, chanid 1009 could tell an NTSC tuner input associated with
video source 1 that it needs to send the V4L ioctl for freqid 9
or an HDTV card with an input for video source 2 should use the
2009 major 9 and minor 0 to set the card to download the WWOR
data.

What she needs from zap2it is a list of what programs to expect
from freqid 9 when 1009 is used and a list of the programs that
will be shown when the HDTV card is set to 9.0. These may have
different DD stationids stored in channel.xmltvid (another mis-
leading name). The programids and times may be identical but
the HD channel may have the program.hdtv flag set for 2009
showings when the broadcast originates in HDTV. There may be
some other programs that are only shown on the HD channel but
I don't know if that is true in this case. I do know that it
is true in other cases. However, she will want to set the
channel.callsign to "WWOR" for myth's sake.

First, let's say that WWOR has generic episodes of "Family Feud"
at 3pm each day. If the callsigns for 1009 and 2009 are different,
myth must assume that generic episodes of "Family Feud" are almost
surely different specific episode from different stations so it
schedules 1009 at 3pm and 2009 at 3 to record two different Feuds.
By using the same callsign, it assumes that a generic 3 o'clock
Family Feud is the same specific episode from any of the channels
that carry WWOR and therefore only needs to record it from one
input.

Second, she is only recording IFL to be able to converse with
her boyfriend. Dancing With the Stars must, of course, record
in HD on her only HD card and therefore it is okay for the Single
record rule for the IFL event to use 1009 on an NTSC card to
capture the same programid at the same start time from a WWOR
broadcast.

> when you start mixing OTA with cable or satellite sources.
>
>>>> likely that it will be recorded on 7-1 as 1071.
>> But it is deterministic and predictable. See:
>> http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-12.html#ss12.6
> Yep.
>
>> People often want to jump to the conclusion that if two channels
>> primarily carry programming from the same station, it therefore
>> follows that the listings are identical. This is not true.
> <snip, case of different programming on same callsign>
>
> Hmm, if this is the case then there are two bugs we need to fix.
> First, mythweb should use the same grouping as the program guide
> (channum, callsign).

Yes. Long ago the EPG used to show every chanid. If two sources
had the same callsign and channum (cable 3 KVBC and digital STB
3 KVBC) the EPG would show duplicate rows for no apparent reason.
Filtering these to show one row is a cosmetic hack which has no
bearing on scheduling decisions. A question in this thread is
what if two channels (sigh, frequency identifiers) carry mostly
the same listings from the same station but with some differences
and the program.channum are the same, how can you be sure which
channel is shown in the EPG? Doctor, it hurts. Don't do that. A
suggestion was made that the callsigns should differ but that
will affect schedule decisions. I suggest that the callsigns
should remain the same but use a different cosmetic channel.channum
so the EPG will show two rows and as a visual aid everywhere to
clue you in on which channel (fre...) is being referenced.

> Second, manual recordings should be based
> on the channel not the station (currently if you create a manual
> recording selecting "1071, WABC-HD" and MythTV has a "7-1
> WABC-HD" you can end up with the wrong one being recorded.
> (I ran into this with a couple FTA DVB-S channels, one without
> listings, the other day.)

This is a little fishy. Manual record rules can, do and should
behave like rules that match showing in the listings. If two
channels are given the same callsign, we should assume that the
content is predominately the same. If that is not true then change
the callsigns. Therefore the manual timeslot for either WABC-HD
channel should grab the same content. However, it is possible
in a rare exceptional case that the manual rule is for content
only shown on one of the channels and not the other but is not
shown in the listings. In that case, the preferred input can be
set in the rule's Scheduling Options to force which input should
be used. The ability for the majority of manual rules to failover
to another channel from the same station should not be sacrificed
for this rare exception.

> I also have to change those smarts I just added in the multirec
> branch to check that the current programs are identical before
> substituting one WABC for the other WABC when the desired one
> of them is on an unavailable tuner and they have a different
> channum, I thought that 'callsign' == 'programming stream
> aside from commercials' in MythTV.

Right. This is part of the thought that I don't care what CNN
is broadcasting from Atlanta GA, what I need to know is what
Cox cable 20 will be showing from CNN. Regardless of if callsigns
are the same, different or similar, we need to know what specific
shows to expect when we tune to a specific channel(!). On Sunday
evenings, I've needed a program entry for 1003 (3 KVBC), 10pm,
"The Apprentice". Another row for 2123 (123 KVBC) that tells me
that sending 123 to the channel change script then recording from
s-video would also capture "The Apprentice" from this NBC affiliate.
However, a few hours earlier I could only record Ebert & Roper
from 1003 but I could have recorded Nevada Newsmakers on 123 at
the same time from an s-video input.

-- bjm


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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 13:59 -0700, Bruce Markey wrote:
> Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
> > On Sun, 2007-05-06 at 13:17 -0700, Bruce Markey wrote:
> >> Michael T. Dean wrote:
> >>> On 05/06/2007 02:01 PM, MythTV wrote:
> >>>> #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns

> Back to CNN. This is a network that is sent to affiliates.
Ok, I got ya. The callsign in this case refers to the network
stream, and each affiliate uses the same callsign; but modifies
the stream as affiliates do.

> However, I
> infer that you intended to say something like 'the content from
> the station is identical for every channel that carries the
> station'.
What I meant was for WNET/WLIW the programming on
for example "WNET-HD" will be the same OTA and over CATV.
So in this particular case 'callsign' == 'content'.

> > The same is the case for the News Corporation, it has
> > 4 'stations' in NYC with different callsigns:
> > WNYW 5.0 (5 VHF analog)
> > WNYW DT 5.1 (44 UHF digital) and 9.2 (38 UHF digital)
> > WWOR 9.0 (9 VHF analog)
> > WWOR DT 9.1 (38 UHF digital) and 5.2 (44 UHF digital)
>
> I agree that frequency != callsign. I disagree that frequency !=
> channel. A channel is the frequency (or ID) for a receiving
> device to 'tune' to in order to receive a broadcast signal. The
> origin of the programming that is broadcast over that frequency
> (if any) is a different issue. Two or more channels may carry
> programming from the same station and that programming may be
> identical but they are still two (or more) different frequencies
> which the receiving device may tune to. 9.0, 9 VHF analog, 9.1,
> 38 UHF digital, 5.2, and 44 UHF digital are six examples of
> channels. If I tried tuning devices to these six channels in
> southern Nevada, most would have snow or no signal and none
> would show WWOR content but the receiving device could be
> instructed to tune to that carrier frequency. Therefore, each
> frequency is a channel (regardless of the content sent over
> that channel).

All I meant was that the transmission on a frequency can be a
multiplex carrying more than one "channel of programming"; the
frequency UHF 44 contains the set {5.1,5.2}, while the 5.1
"channel" contains the set {5.1}, and {5.1} != {5.1,5.2}. The
frequency UHF 44 is an "FCC channel", but corresponds to two
"channel" rows in MythTV with different tuning information.
Should I refer to 5.1 as a "sub-channel" rather than a channel
to avoid confusion?

> My point is that we fall into the trap of saying that 'IFL
> Battleground is on 9' and '9.0 is the exact same channel'.
> Well, it is WWOR that broadcasts IFL and tuning an NTSC device
> to channel 9 in New York should show the WWOR content. 9.0
> would be entirely different tuning information for an HDTV
> device to determine which packets to decode in order to see
> the content sent from WWOR.
I grok you completely on this.

> Second, she is only recording IFL to be able to converse with
> her boyfriend. Dancing With the Stars must, of course, record
> in HD on her only HD card and therefore it is okay for the Single
> record rule for the IFL event to use 1009 on an NTSC card to
> capture the same programid at the same start time from a WWOR
> broadcast.
:)

> A suggestion was made that the callsigns should differ but that
> will affect schedule decisions. I suggest that the callsigns
> should remain the same but use a different cosmetic channel.channum
> so the EPG will show two rows and as a visual aid everywhere to
> clue you in on which channel (fre...) is being referenced.
This is a sensible way to do things; we should do this
in the mythweb as well.

> > Second, manual recordings should be based
> > on the channel not the station (currently if you create a manual
> > recording selecting "1071, WABC-HD" and MythTV has a "7-1
> > WABC-HD" you can end up with the wrong one being recorded.
> > (I ran into this with a couple FTA DVB-S channels, one without
> > listings, the other day.)
> This is a little fishy. Manual record rules can, do and should
> behave like rules that match showing in the listings. If two
> channels are given the same callsign, we should assume that the
> content is predominately the same. If that is not true then change
> the callsigns. Therefore the manual timeslot for either WABC-HD
> channel should grab the same content. However, it is possible
> in a rare exceptional case that the manual rule is for content
> only shown on one of the channels and not the other but is not
> shown in the listings. In that case, the preferred input can be
> set in the rule's Scheduling Options to force which input should
> be used. The ability for the majority of manual rules to failover
> to another channel from the same station should not be sacrificed
> for this rare exception.

I'm fine with this. If you have no listings data for a
channel you either need to give it its own callsign or
create a preferred input rule. (This happened to me
with a partially configured machine anyway, I hadn't
set up DataDirect yet for the source I wanted to record
from; hence the manual record rule.) The argument
against this of course is that if you are using manual
record you probably have listings problems. But this
could be solved with a specific check to see whether
the channel has programming info, and modifying the
record rule in the case of no programming info to add
an input preference by default; I'm happy to consider
that a feature request and not think about it again
unless someone writes a patch.

> > I also have to change those smarts I just added in the multirec
> > branch to check that the current programs are identical before
> > substituting one WABC for the other WABC when the desired one
> > of them is on an unavailable tuner and they have a different
> > channum, I thought that 'callsign' == 'programming stream
> > aside from commercials' in MythTV.
>
> Right. This is part of the thought that I don't care what CNN
> is broadcasting from Atlanta GA, what I need to know is what
> Cox cable 20 will be showing from CNN. Regardless of if callsigns
> are the same, different or similar, we need to know what specific
> shows to expect when we tune to a specific channel(!). On Sunday
> evenings, I've needed a program entry for 1003 (3 KVBC), 10pm,
> "The Apprentice". Another row for 2123 (123 KVBC) that tells me
> that sending 123 to the channel change script then recording from
> s-video would also capture "The Apprentice" from this NBC affiliate.
> However, a few hours earlier I could only record Ebert & Roper
> from 1003 but I could have recorded Nevada Newsmakers on 123 at
> the same time from an s-video input.

Makes sense. I just hadn't thought about it this way
before yesterday because all channels I get from various
sources have the same programming when the callsigns are
identical (only the commercials differ). But obviously if
I had both DishNet and CableVision CNNHN would probably
differ because first is a national (or at least East coast
feed), while the other is a regional feed.

-- Daniel

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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
Daniel Kristjansson wrote:

[lots of good stuff snipped]

IMHO if the core developers are confused by
channel/frequency/callsign/multiplexes/multiple programming stream feeds
then what hope is there for us mere mortals.
being from europe and not using callsigns (well not for the last 50 odd
years or so) and having multiple methods for receiving that same
programming, how should i/we set things up.

as a concrete example:

i have three different feeds of BBC1 (Northern Ireland)

i have a sky digibox
i have two other STB which can receive it because it is free to air
i have two DVB-S cards

at the moment i have them set up as separate entries in the EPG (51, 143
and 4001)
should they all have the same "number" in the EPG?

i don't even know what to call this number. is it a channel number or what?

i'm very confused.
--
simon


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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
On 08/05/07, Simon Kenyon <simon@koala.ie> wrote:
> Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
>
> [lots of good stuff snipped]
>
> IMHO if the core developers are confused by
> channel/frequency/callsign/multiplexes/multiple programming stream feeds
> then what hope is there for us mere mortals.
> being from europe and not using callsigns (well not for the last 50 odd
> years or so) and having multiple methods for receiving that same
> programming, how should i/we set things up.
>
> as a concrete example:
>
> i have three different feeds of BBC1 (Northern Ireland)

Really a -users question so CC'ing -users too if you want to carry
this specific conversation on there, but....

Are you are using the tv_grab_uk_rt feed for this example/all of your channels?

> i have a sky digibox
> i have two other STB which can receive it because it is free to air
> i have two DVB-S cards
>
> at the moment i have them set up as separate entries in the EPG (51, 143
> and 4001)
> should they all have the same "number" in the EPG?

If they are using the same listings from the Radio Times (For BBC1 NI
- northern-ireland.bbc1.bbc.co.uk), configure them with:

i) the same XMLTVID
ii) the same CALLSIGN and NAME
iii) the same CHANNUM

Having the same listings for each instance of a channel across video
sources means the scheduler has optimum information to schedule as
efficiently as possible. You *could* mix and match listings sources
for the same channel on different sources - use XMLTV for the Sky/STB
channels, and DVB EIT for the DVB-T/S/C - but this usually means
listings information for the same programme is different depending on
video source - which gives the scheduler significantly sub-optimum
scheduling capabilities, especially when using duplicate matching with
subtitle and/or description.

> i don't even know what to call this number. is it a channel number or what?

The 3 different numbers your channels above currently have displayed
in the EPG (51,143,4001) are what MythTV calls the channel number
(channum). This is what you key in to change channel when watching
LiveTV, and what you will see in the EPG and upcoming recordings
listings.

If you only want one entry for the channel in the EPG - because it is
the same on all sources (Sky/STB/DVB-S) - you have make sure the
channels have the same callsign and channum.

This is how I have all of my channels configured in the UK, and how I
ensure the scheduler can schedule across the same channels on
different card inputs/video sources.

The other 2 important numerical channel settings you may see mentioned
are CHANID and FREQID. CHANID is a unique identifier for each channel
in MythTV, used internally for tuning and scheduling, so MythTV knows
exactly which channel is being used. FREQID typically contains tuning
information for analog tuners (the UHF channel number) and for
channels tuned externally via a script (the channel number the tuning
script should turn the cable box to when mimicking the remote
control).

Digital tuning via DVB multiplexes is taken care of with another field
in mythconverg.channel and the mythconverg.dtv_multiplex table - but
this is beyond the scope required for setting up channels for display
and scheduling.

The Radio Times listings support the key regionalised channels -
BBC1/BBC2/ITV1 - so as long as user uses the correct XMLTVID initially
and uses it consistently across video sources - everything should be
gravy (paraphrasing Jarod).

I've got plans to try and get this sorted once and for all over the
next few months in both the XMLTV project (add channel/platform
support in the DTD) and within MythTV (to enable users to add country
based platforms and channel lists), health and relevant knowledge
allowing.

Nick
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http://mythtv.org/wiki/
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Re: [mythtv-commits] Ticket #3418: [13136] prevents seeing channels with duplicate callsigns [ In reply to ]
Daniel Kristjansson wrote:
...
> All I meant was that the transmission on a frequency can be a
> multiplex carrying more than one "channel of programming"; the

I think "channel of programming" or 'agreed upon carrier
frequency that may carry a television transmission' should be
the assumption when the word "channel" is used in relation to
TV channels. Confusion arises when "channel" is used to refer
to the content from a television broadcaster.

> frequency UHF 44 contains the set {5.1,5.2}, while the 5.1
> "channel" contains the set {5.1}, and {5.1} != {5.1,5.2}. The
> frequency UHF 44 is an "FCC channel", but corresponds to two
> "channel" rows in MythTV with different tuning information.
> Should I refer to 5.1 as a "sub-channel" rather than a channel
> to avoid confusion?

"Sub-channel" may clarify the N.1, N.2 when discussing HDTV
channels. However, 5.1 and 5.2 are each 'agreed upon carrier
frequency that may carry a television transmission'. These could
or should be referred to as TV channels because each may be
used by a piece of receiving equipment to tune to the content
from a transmitter.

The UHF 44 "channel" is a different use of the word meaning
something like 'the spectrum of frequencies that had previously
been reserved for NTSC broadcasts'. If I understand your example,
it is assumed that there is no NTSC broadcast allowed on channel
44 in this market and instead two different "channels of programming"
for digital transmissions can now be found in the spectrum that had
been reserved for NTSC 44.

-- bjm

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