Mailing List Archive

Fred,

From my perspective I'm not sure what would be blocking liqbase from running
on the 770.

I believe the only none standard things it uses are the XV library and the
XSP raw mouse information.
If you would like to run liqbase from the console and send me the output I
will be happy to give it a run through and see whats going on.

I will be happy to attempt to get it running on all Nokia maemo devices, and
hopefully it would be a minor tweak :)

Gary






On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Fred Pacquier <fredp@dial.oleane.com>wrote:

> Ryan Abel a écrit :
> > On Oct 27, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Urivan Saaib wrote:
> >> I've been playing with Diablo on my n770 for several months. It has
> >> been
> >> fairly stable.
> >
> > No, you've been playing with Chinook. Diablo is not available for the
> > 770.
>
> Well, this is a question I've meant to ask Quim for a while now, so here
> is my opportunity. I've asked it here before without an answer, but some
> threads on ITT have brought it back to light recently.
>
> Despite the disparaging remarks by the Maemo team when OS2008HE came out
> ("end-of-the-line", "too much for the poor beast" etc.), quite a few
> people (including me) are satisfied with it breathing a new life into
> their old 770. Maemo Mapper in particular, a rare example of commitment
> to maintaining a native maemo app on all NIT platforms, works just fine
> on it.
>
> The problem we are having now is that some recent apps, or their Diablo
> upgrades, fail to install or run, although they could be really useful
> on a home-bound 770 : to name a few, Canola, Maemo remote (which also
> uses EFL), or liqbase...
>
> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
> maybe the N8x0 too), it would be really good to see a final update
> bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
> run the latest relevant apps.
>
> Is there any chance this will happen ?
>
> TIA,
> fp
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>

While I don't own a 700 or an 800, I have an n810, I'm watching what Nokia
does with these older models, are they going to require users upgrade the
hardware to get new apps, or are they going to support the older hardware?
If Nokia does not continue to support older hardware, I'm not sure Nokia
going to get any more of my money. $400 for a n810 is a lot to shell out
when you can buy a small laptop, Acer, Asus, etc. and have a system with
just a tad larger footprint.

Just my .02,

Denis


On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:58 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:

> Fred,
>
> From my perspective I'm not sure what would be blocking liqbase from
> running on the 770.
>
> I believe the only none standard things it uses are the XV library and the
> XSP raw mouse information.
> If you would like to run liqbase from the console and send me the output I
> will be happy to give it a run through and see whats going on.
>
> I will be happy to attempt to get it running on all Nokia maemo devices,
> and hopefully it would be a minor tweak :)
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Fred Pacquier <fredp@dial.oleane.com>wrote:
>
>> Ryan Abel a écrit :
>> > On Oct 27, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Urivan Saaib wrote:
>> >> I've been playing with Diablo on my n770 for several months. It has
>> >> been
>> >> fairly stable.
>> >
>> > No, you've been playing with Chinook. Diablo is not available for the
>> > 770.
>>
>> Well, this is a question I've meant to ask Quim for a while now, so here
>> is my opportunity. I've asked it here before without an answer, but some
>> threads on ITT have brought it back to light recently.
>>
>> Despite the disparaging remarks by the Maemo team when OS2008HE came out
>> ("end-of-the-line", "too much for the poor beast" etc.), quite a few
>> people (including me) are satisfied with it breathing a new life into
>> their old 770. Maemo Mapper in particular, a rare example of commitment
>> to maintaining a native maemo app on all NIT platforms, works just fine
>> on it.
>>
>> The problem we are having now is that some recent apps, or their Diablo
>> upgrades, fail to install or run, although they could be really useful
>> on a home-bound 770 : to name a few, Canola, Maemo remote (which also
>> uses EFL), or liqbase...
>>
>> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
>> maybe the N8x0 too), it would be really good to see a final update
>> bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
>> run the latest relevant apps.
>>
>> Is there any chance this will happen ?
>>
>> TIA,
>> fp
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
>


--
--------------------------------------
sik vis paw kem, para bellum
--------------------------------------
oderint dum metuant
--------------------------------------
"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC

Denis,

From the very first day I bought my tablet I knew I was on borrowed time.
Just the same as when I purchase a new desktop or laptop or car or phone.
Evolutions occur and hardware becomes old.

I have had my tablet now for 10 months, it remains valid and up to date and
I can do more with it now than the day I bought it.
People who purchased n800s have had a much longer lifespan, Nokia maintained
compatibility with the hardware when the n810 was released and even gave a
clockspeed boost to the 800.

In the same way that 770 owners still exist, the n8x0 series will continue
and people will still run applications on it, but I and most people queried
on this would not expect it to run every single brand new piece of code out
there at the same performance level as currently (if at all for some
things).

If you go and have a look at the difference with the omap2 and the omap3,
you will understand there is a lot more that can be done with the new chips
and this opens up new avenues for development in all aspects.

Those new areas however do not mean what we have now simply ceases to exist,
and if done carefully even some new software can expand into the newer
hardware and simply perform better there whilst still maintaining
compatibility with the previous generation.

Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop everything
because they have users of a current generation who can't use the newer
faster better way of doing something?
Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had a lot
of owners?

I personally can't wait for the upgrades, I think the omap3 and everything
that enables will make for a terrific experience and for me it cannot be
released soon enough.

Gary



On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Denis Dimick <dgdimick@gmail.com> wrote:

> While I don't own a 700 or an 800, I have an n810, I'm watching what Nokia
> does with these older models, are they going to require users upgrade the
> hardware to get new apps, or are they going to support the older hardware?
> If Nokia does not continue to support older hardware, I'm not sure Nokia
> going to get any more of my money. $400 for a n810 is a lot to shell out
> when you can buy a small laptop, Acer, Asus, etc. and have a system with
> just a tad larger footprint.
>
> Just my .02,
>
> Denis
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:58 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fred,
>>
>> From my perspective I'm not sure what would be blocking liqbase from
>> running on the 770.
>>
>> I believe the only none standard things it uses are the XV library and the
>> XSP raw mouse information.
>> If you would like to run liqbase from the console and send me the output I
>> will be happy to give it a run through and see whats going on.
>>
>> I will be happy to attempt to get it running on all Nokia maemo devices,
>> and hopefully it would be a minor tweak :)
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Fred Pacquier <fredp@dial.oleane.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Ryan Abel a écrit :
>>> > On Oct 27, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Urivan Saaib wrote:
>>> >> I've been playing with Diablo on my n770 for several months. It has
>>> >> been
>>> >> fairly stable.
>>> >
>>> > No, you've been playing with Chinook. Diablo is not available for the
>>> > 770.
>>>
>>> Well, this is a question I've meant to ask Quim for a while now, so here
>>> is my opportunity. I've asked it here before without an answer, but some
>>> threads on ITT have brought it back to light recently.
>>>
>>> Despite the disparaging remarks by the Maemo team when OS2008HE came out
>>> ("end-of-the-line", "too much for the poor beast" etc.), quite a few
>>> people (including me) are satisfied with it breathing a new life into
>>> their old 770. Maemo Mapper in particular, a rare example of commitment
>>> to maintaining a native maemo app on all NIT platforms, works just fine
>>> on it.
>>>
>>> The problem we are having now is that some recent apps, or their Diablo
>>> upgrades, fail to install or run, although they could be really useful
>>> on a home-bound 770 : to name a few, Canola, Maemo remote (which also
>>> uses EFL), or liqbase...
>>>
>>> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
>>> maybe the N8x0 too), it would be really good to see a final update
>>> bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
>>> run the latest relevant apps.
>>>
>>> Is there any chance this will happen ?
>>>
>>> TIA,
>>> fp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------
> sik vis paw kem, para bellum
> --------------------------------------
> oderint dum metuant
> --------------------------------------
> "Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There
> won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take
> our women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC
>
>

El Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:35:17 +0000
"gary liquid" <liquid@gmail.com> escribió:


> Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop
> everything because they have users of a current generation who can't
> use the newer faster better way of doing something?
> Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had
> a lot of owners?

I can run the latest linux distribution on an almost 10 years old
computer, and I assure you that the distro
maker didn't stand still to cater for me. It's obviously slower than a
new computer but it's quite useable, I just turn off the most demanding
desktop effects and don't use it for 3d animation. Heck, I could even
use lxde instead of kde4 if I really cared about its slowness.
If I buy, say, a netbook, I'll lose the pocketability of the tablet
(and that's quite an important factor), but I know that 10 years from
now I'll probably be able to use it (if it lasts, which I doubt, since
most electronics nowadays are made to use and throw away in a matter of
months, yes, including the tablets) with the latest and greatest.

Bye
--
Luca

_______________________________________________
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Gary,

Luca's reply is more in line with my thinking. I do think one thing that
Nokia needs to understand is when it's time to purchase a new "device" user
irritation with a vendor plays a part in the decision. Will I climb further
into bed with Nokia, buying a phone also, or look somewhere else for love?
I do like my n810, it's replaced my iPhone, but when it dies I may not look
at Nokia to replace it; maybe this is the "old Linux" way of thinking, run
it until it dies.

I will admit that I know very little of the advantages of upgrading
currently, however, I'm not looking to upgrade.

I sure hope this is not one of the subjects that spins of into one that's
only worthy of /dev/null

Denis



On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:35 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:

> Denis,
>
> From the very first day I bought my tablet I knew I was on borrowed time.
> Just the same as when I purchase a new desktop or laptop or car or phone.
> Evolutions occur and hardware becomes old.
>
> I have had my tablet now for 10 months, it remains valid and up to date and
> I can do more with it now than the day I bought it.
> People who purchased n800s have had a much longer lifespan, Nokia
> maintained compatibility with the hardware when the n810 was released and
> even gave a clockspeed boost to the 800.
>
> In the same way that 770 owners still exist, the n8x0 series will continue
> and people will still run applications on it, but I and most people queried
> on this would not expect it to run every single brand new piece of code out
> there at the same performance level as currently (if at all for some
> things).
>
> If you go and have a look at the difference with the omap2 and the omap3,
> you will understand there is a lot more that can be done with the new chips
> and this opens up new avenues for development in all aspects.
>
> Those new areas however do not mean what we have now simply ceases to
> exist, and if done carefully even some new software can expand into the
> newer hardware and simply perform better there whilst still maintaining
> compatibility with the previous generation.
>
> Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop everything
> because they have users of a current generation who can't use the newer
> faster better way of doing something?
> Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had a lot
> of owners?
>
> I personally can't wait for the upgrades, I think the omap3 and everything
> that enables will make for a terrific experience and for me it cannot be
> released soon enough.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:14 PM, Denis Dimick <dgdimick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> While I don't own a 700 or an 800, I have an n810, I'm watching what Nokia
>> does with these older models, are they going to require users upgrade the
>> hardware to get new apps, or are they going to support the older hardware?
>> If Nokia does not continue to support older hardware, I'm not sure Nokia
>> going to get any more of my money. $400 for a n810 is a lot to shell out
>> when you can buy a small laptop, Acer, Asus, etc. and have a system with
>> just a tad larger footprint.
>>
>> Just my .02,
>>
>> Denis
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:58 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> From my perspective I'm not sure what would be blocking liqbase from
>>> running on the 770.
>>>
>>> I believe the only none standard things it uses are the XV library and
>>> the XSP raw mouse information.
>>> If you would like to run liqbase from the console and send me the output
>>> I will be happy to give it a run through and see whats going on.
>>>
>>> I will be happy to attempt to get it running on all Nokia maemo devices,
>>> and hopefully it would be a minor tweak :)
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Fred Pacquier <fredp@dial.oleane.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ryan Abel a écrit :
>>>> > On Oct 27, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Urivan Saaib wrote:
>>>> >> I've been playing with Diablo on my n770 for several months. It has
>>>> >> been
>>>> >> fairly stable.
>>>> >
>>>> > No, you've been playing with Chinook. Diablo is not available for the
>>>> > 770.
>>>>
>>>> Well, this is a question I've meant to ask Quim for a while now, so here
>>>> is my opportunity. I've asked it here before without an answer, but some
>>>> threads on ITT have brought it back to light recently.
>>>>
>>>> Despite the disparaging remarks by the Maemo team when OS2008HE came out
>>>> ("end-of-the-line", "too much for the poor beast" etc.), quite a few
>>>> people (including me) are satisfied with it breathing a new life into
>>>> their old 770. Maemo Mapper in particular, a rare example of commitment
>>>> to maintaining a native maemo app on all NIT platforms, works just fine
>>>> on it.
>>>>
>>>> The problem we are having now is that some recent apps, or their Diablo
>>>> upgrades, fail to install or run, although they could be really useful
>>>> on a home-bound 770 : to name a few, Canola, Maemo remote (which also
>>>> uses EFL), or liqbase...
>>>>
>>>> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
>>>> maybe the N8x0 too), it would be really good to see a final update
>>>> bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
>>>> run the latest relevant apps.
>>>>
>>>> Is there any chance this will happen ?
>>>>
>>>> TIA,
>>>> fp
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------
>> sik vis paw kem, para bellum
>> --------------------------------------
>> oderint dum metuant
>> --------------------------------------
>> "Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There
>> won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take
>> our women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC
>>
>>
>


--
--------------------------------------
sik vis paw kem, para bellum
--------------------------------------
oderint dum metuant
--------------------------------------
"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 07:52:09PM +0100, Fred Pacquier wrote:
>
> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and

This sounds like something I should know about. Googling Fremantle
tells me it's a city in Australia, which seems not relevant.

-- hendrik

_______________________________________________
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Luca wrote:
>
> > Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop
> > everything because they have users of a current generation who can't
> > use the newer faster better way of doing something?
>
> I can run the latest linux distribution on an almost 10 years old
> computer, and I assure you that the distro
> maker didn't stand still to cater for me.

I've heard this argujment before and *can* relate to it. However:

* The difference between a PIII and a modern processor
is, in many ways, smaller than the difference
between OMAP2420 (and the surrounding architecture)
and the OMAP3430.

* Having a good usable UI on a Maemo 5 device /and/
a decent user experience on an N810 will cost
more to develop. Nokia *can't* ship a sub-
standard UI (if Maemo 5'll be as good as planned)
and officially support it.

> Heck, I could even use lxde instead of kde4 if I really cared about its
> slowness.

And things like Debian will allow you to replace Maemo with something else; or keep Maemo 4. Nokia's plans to differentiate at the UI layer, and open the lower layers will help with other replacements at the higher levels - just as you describe.

Cheers,

Andrew

--
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org  |  http://www.bleb.org/
maemo.org Community Council member

_______________________________________________
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:35 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:
> Denis,
>
> From the very first day I bought my tablet I knew I was on borrowed time.
> Just the same as when I purchase a new desktop or laptop or car or phone.
> Evolutions occur and hardware becomes old.
>

Talk about "disposable society"... Have you no shame? Hardware only
becomes obsolete if you are a slave to fashion or are a compulsive
gamer. My laptop is over 8 years old, and I'd still be happy and using
it if the backlight hadn't gone out last fall. My car is a 2000 model
with 100,000 miles, and I maintain it very well and wouldn't trade it
for a new one if you paid me. My phone doesn't even have a camera, and
I'll probably never get another one unless it dies or I change
providers to a different network type. My desktop PC is a Via Epia
M10000, and if it weren't for the electronics manufacturers' lobby
successfully pressuring the legislation that forced HDTV
(planned/forced obsolescence on the grandest scale!!! >:o ) I
wouldn't be looking to upgrade that, either. I wouldn't have tried to
set aside my Handspring Visor if it weren't for my N800, although it
turns out I _can't_ set it aside because the ITs don't have a PIM that
plays nicely with my data....

Newer and faster is all too often NOT better!!!

> I have had my tablet now for 10 months, it remains valid and up to date and
> I can do more with it now than the day I bought it.
> People who purchased n800s have had a much longer lifespan, Nokia maintained
> compatibility with the hardware when the n810 was released and even gave a
> clockspeed boost to the 800.
>

The N810 is *not* a replacement for the N800. I don't like the N810,
and it's extremely doubtful that I will ever get one. They have
different features, and for me the N800 not only has a lot more bang
for the buck, it has more bang period.

> In the same way that 770 owners still exist, the n8x0 series will continue
> and people will still run applications on it, but I and most people queried
> on this would not expect it to run every single brand new piece of code out
> there at the same performance level as currently (if at all for some
> things).
>

Well, my 8-year-old laptop runs every new WinXP application that I
need, and ditto for my basically equivalent-horsepower desktop running
Kubuntu. Sure, apps may load a little slower, but once they're loaded
there's no reason at all for me to want anything newer or faster.

> If you go and have a look at the difference with the omap2 and the omap3,
> you will understand there is a lot more that can be done with the new chips
> and this opens up new avenues for development in all aspects.
>
> Those new areas however do not mean what we have now simply ceases to exist,
> and if done carefully even some new software can expand into the newer
> hardware and simply perform better there whilst still maintaining
> compatibility with the previous generation.
>
> Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop everything
> because they have users of a current generation who can't use the newer
> faster better way of doing something?

I repeat: "newer faster" maybe, "better" definitely not! Even Diablo
is several steps back with all the problems it's got. I won't be
"upgrading from Chinook to Diablo until I know for certain that the
troubles that everyone else has been having with the apps that I use
have been ironed out.

> Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had a lot
> of owners?
>

On the other hand, you can still get peripherals and software for the
Playstation 1...

> I personally can't wait for the upgrades, I think the omap3 and everything
> that enables will make for a terrific experience and for me it cannot be
> released soon enough.
>
> Gary
>

I can and will wait for the alleged "upgrades". For the most part, the
"upgrades" are solely for the purpose of creating flashy, showing
fluff and don't actually speed anything up, they just allow you to get
the same amount of work done at the same speed (and sometimes a lot
_slower_) with lots of bells and whistles and flashing lights.

If you can't get something as basic and important as a built-in
workable PIM out of the box, who cares if you've got a 3D,
inertial-scrolling, multitouch interface? I certainly don't.

You can try to keep up with the Joneses if you want, but personally
I'm only going to pay for what I really need and want, not what
somebody else tells me I need and want.

Mark
_______________________________________________
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Mark <wolfmane@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:35 PM, gary liquid <liquid@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Denis,
> >
> > From the very first day I bought my tablet I knew I was on borrowed time.
> > Just the same as when I purchase a new desktop or laptop or car or phone.
> > Evolutions occur and hardware becomes old.
> >
>
> Talk about "disposable society"... Have you no shame? Hardware only
> becomes obsolete if you are a slave to fashion or are a compulsive
> gamer. My laptop is over 8 years old, and I'd still be happy and using
> it if the backlight hadn't gone out last fall. My car is a 2000 model
> with 100,000 miles, and I maintain it very well and wouldn't trade it
> for a new one if you paid me. My phone doesn't even have a camera, and
> I'll probably never get another one unless it dies or I change
> providers to a different network type. My desktop PC is a Via Epia
> M10000, and if it weren't for the electronics manufacturers' lobby
> successfully pressuring the legislation that forced HDTV
> (planned/forced obsolescence on the grandest scale!!! >:o ) I
> wouldn't be looking to upgrade that, either. I wouldn't have tried to
> set aside my Handspring Visor if it weren't for my N800, although it
> turns out I _can't_ set it aside because the ITs don't have a PIM that
> plays nicely with my data....
>
> Newer and faster is all too often NOT better!!!
>


Mark,

you are 100% right of course and the current generation devices will
continue to work till the end of days.

A lot of people buy devices as tools and they will work as expected, but a
great number of people buy things because they appeal, and will upgrade at
some arbitary point in the future when the next thing appeals to them.

I spent a lot of money on my device and had very high expectations of it -
when I bought it I found I could not scroll text like I used to on my old
pda book reader, and other things jumped at me - like in your case.

I have had ideas in my head and in code for the last few years about how I
want to interact with a touch device.
I am getting close to my goal and the n8x0 has shown me its possible, but
you would not believe just how much hacking and sidestepping and pieces of
lateral thinking I have had to go through to get it running as *I* want.

Please go and see what I have achieved (the first video will show you what I
do on my current n810 machine):

http://liqbase.net/

This is a piece of custom crafted extremely optimized software which is
simply not possible using the current standard tools on these devices.

The next generation *should* enable decent UI features which most normal
users appreciate without making the developers tear their hair out to give
them.

Gary

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
> Luca wrote:
>>
>> > Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop
>> > everything because they have users of a current generation who can't
>> > use the newer faster better way of doing something?
>>
>> I can run the latest linux distribution on an almost 10 years old
>> computer, and I assure you that the distro
>> maker didn't stand still to cater for me.
>
> I've heard this argujment before and *can* relate to it. However:
>
> * The difference between a PIII and a modern processor
> is, in many ways, smaller than the difference
> between OMAP2420 (and the surrounding architecture)
> and the OMAP3430.
>
> * Having a good usable UI on a Maemo 5 device /and/
> a decent user experience on an N810 will cost
> more to develop.

Only if Nokia *deliberately* tries to make the current tablets
obsolete. Actually, it will cost more for Nokia to develop a new OS
from the ground-up in order to support completely different hardware
than it would for them to evolve the current OS and hardware.

> Nokia *can't* ship a sub-
> standard UI (if Maemo 5'll be as good as planned)
> and officially support it.
>
>> Heck, I could even use lxde instead of kde4 if I really cared about its
>> slowness.
>
> And things like Debian will allow you to replace Maemo with something else; or keep Maemo 4. Nokia's plans to differentiate at the UI layer, and open the lower layers will help with other replacements at the higher levels - just as you describe.
>

Yeah, they instigated the maemo community in order to have an excuse
to abandon support for hardware that is actually quite new. The N810
hasn't even been out a year yet, and everybody's talking like it's a
dinosaur. They had lots of choices for hardware at every stage of the
tablet game, and if they didn't start out with something more cutting
edge, that's their problem, and shouldn't be ours.

> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>

You're trying to tell us that we *want* newer, different hardware. I'm
telling you that no, the N800 is *exactly* what I want in form factor
and every other hardware feature. The only thing that is lacking is
some fundamental software - that does *not* require any more
horsepower.

The way they're headed, Nokia is ensuring that this is the one and
only Nokia product I will ever buy. They are also killing any chance
they would have had to make an impact with other consumers.

Mark
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On Oct 28, 2008, at 6:06 PM, Mark wrote:

> Yeah, they instigated the maemo community in order to have an excuse
> to abandon support for hardware that is actually quite new. The N810
> hasn't even been out a year yet, and everybody's talking like it's a
> dinosaur. They had lots of choices for hardware at every stage of the
> tablet game, and if they didn't start out with something more cutting
> edge, that's their problem, and shouldn't be ours.

So, using one of the fastest ARM SoCs at the time of release doesn't
count as using cutting edge hardware?

Bogus.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair
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On Oct 30, 2008, at 2:07 AM, hendrik@topoi.pooq.com wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 07:52:09PM +0100, Fred Pacquier wrote:
>>
>> So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
>
> This sounds like something I should know about. Googling Fremantle
> tells me it's a city in Australia, which seems not relevant.


Your google-fu is very weak.

The first four results are all relevant: http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=fremantle+maemo

--
Ryan Abel
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On Oct 28, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Luca Olivetti wrote:

> El Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:35:17 +0000
> "gary liquid" <liquid@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>> Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop
>> everything because they have users of a current generation who can't
>> use the newer faster better way of doing something?
>> Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had
>> a lot of owners?
>
> I can run the latest linux distribution on an almost 10 years old
> computer, and I assure you that the distro
> maker didn't stand still to cater for me. It's obviously slower than a
> new computer but it's quite useable, I just turn off the most
> demanding
> desktop effects and don't use it for 3d animation. Heck, I could even
> use lxde instead of kde4 if I really cared about its slowness.
> If I buy, say, a netbook, I'll lose the pocketability of the tablet
> (and that's quite an important factor), but I know that 10 years from
> now I'll probably be able to use it (if it lasts, which I doubt, since
> most electronics nowadays are made to use and throw away in a matter
> of
> months, yes, including the tablets) with the latest and greatest.

This is a totally bogus analogy.

No matter what you think, the mobile ARM hardware just cannot be
equated to off-the-shelf x86 hardware, it's a whole different beast,
for which you have to understand the issues involved. The embedded
market simply moves too quickly, with each generation existing at the
"barely enough" performance end of the spectrum. The performance
margins are simply too thin and the hardware capabilities too modest.

That said, I'm fairly certain Nokia doesn't even know for certain
whether Fremantle will be supported on the OMAP2 generation yet. Let's
wait until it's decided one way or the other before we start throwing
stones.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

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On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 08:01:54PM -0400, Ryan Abel wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2008, at 2:07 AM, hendrik@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
>
> >On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 07:52:09PM +0100, Fred Pacquier wrote:
> >>
> >>So, before the Fremantle wave definitely buries the 770 platform (and
> >
> >This sounds like something I should know about. Googling Fremantle
> >tells me it's a city in Australia, which seems not relevant.
>
>
> Your google-fu is very weak.

Admittedly.

> The first four results are all relevant:
> http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=fremantle+maemo

Ah! If I had known fremantle had something to do with maemo ...

-- hendrik
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ext Fred Pacquier wrote:
> it would be really good to see a final update
> bringing the main Diablo improvements to OS2008HE, so that it can still
> run the latest relevant apps.
>
> Is there any chance this will happen ?

Not from Nokia's side. We rather invest our time in
http://wiki.maemo.org/Objective:Maemo_variants so whoever can come up
with customized editions at will.

Anybody interested in this objective (and removing the obstacles in the
way) please propose specific tasks and file specific bugs/requests.

About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before Nokia
publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
users are going to benefit from this.

--
Quim Gil
marketing manager, open source
Maemo Software @ Nokia
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On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:51 AM, Quim Gil wrote:

> About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before Nokia
> publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
> your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
> edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
> software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
> users are going to benefit from this.


Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are
pretty important.


[1]https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3470

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

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ext Ryan Abel wrote:
> Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
> apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are pretty
> important.

It's not that "Nokia is done with Diablo". The development is split in
teams and the Diablo development differs depending on teams. Some teams
are indeed mostly or totally done with Diablo since the component is
stable and all the work has moved forward to the new releases.

They are prepared to react if big problems arise but they are less
likely (according to the internal process) to deviate resources for
minor issues. This is probably the case of the Control Panel development.

This makes sense from a purely internal perspective (users can leave
without a control panel going full screen - as a user I hadn't noticed
ever myself). However, I agree with you that rejecting a patch for an
easyfix doesn't make much sense from a purely external point of view...

So more work trying to connect and complement internal and external
views. Going back to my initial suggestion, at least we at Nokia better
invest our time fixing a practical issue like this rather than having a
discussion about future plans before the foundations of those plans are
in place.

> [1]https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3470

--
Quim Gil
marketing manager, open source
Maemo Software @ Nokia
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On Oct 29, 2008, at 5:40 AM, Quim Gil wrote:

> ext Ryan Abel wrote:
>> Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
>> apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are
>> pretty
>> important.
>
> It's not that "Nokia is done with Diablo". The development is split in
> teams and the Diablo development differs depending on teams. Some
> teams
> are indeed mostly or totally done with Diablo since the component is
> stable and all the work has moved forward to the new releases.

Which is completely impossible to divine from an outsider's point of
view. Either Nokia needs to change its workflow in such a way that
"working" is automatically "working in the community" or managers need
to find a way to make time to interact with the community (even 30
minutes a week dealing with bugs in Bugzilla would be a godsend).

Otherwise, we're just never going to make any real progress.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

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Ryan,

First off I'd like to thank you and the other members of the Maemo community
council for devoting time to Maemo, we all are busy in this day and time,
and I'm grateful there are people willing to stand up and lead this
community.

Last night I was thinking about the issue of Nokia dropping support for
various hardware platforms, I'm speaking of in the future also, and I
started to think about the early days of Linux 15 years ago. There was not
any company that was willing to stand up and embrace Linux, come out with
ANY hardware support and most of the communities time was spend trying to
reverse engineer drivers. Now today we have a number of vendors that support
Linux and ship drivers, most users can seamlessly install Linux and we have
Nokia that has embraced Linux, and given us these wonderful toys, tools,
whatever you want to call them.

So the worst case here; Nokia drops out of the Linux market, or reduces
their support for older hardware platforms.

Since the software is open source, the hardware seems to be well documented,
the community knows how to write applications, hack the core O/S or UI, we
just end up going back in time a few years to the days where we had to patch
source ourselves, and chose what applications we want to install; until
someone re-writes the install process and we get back to a fully automated
install.

All we lose is a bit of time, we don't lose the hardware.

Just my thoughts,

Denis

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:53 AM, Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:51 AM, Quim Gil wrote:
>
> > About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before Nokia
> > publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
> > your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
> > edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
> > software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
> > users are going to benefit from this.
>
>
> Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
> apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are
> pretty important.
>
>
> [1]https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3470
>
> --
> Ryan Abel
> Maemo Community Council chair
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>



--
--------------------------------------
sik vis paw kem, para bellum
--------------------------------------
oderint dum metuant
--------------------------------------
"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 09:11:19AM -0600, Denis Dimick wrote:
> Ryan,
>
> First off I'd like to thank you and the other members of the Maemo community
> council for devoting time to Maemo, we all are busy in this day and time,
> and I'm grateful there are people willing to stand up and lead this
> community.
>
> Last night I was thinking about the issue of Nokia dropping support for
> various hardware platforms, I'm speaking of in the future also, and I
> started to think about the early days of Linux 15 years ago. There was not
> any company that was willing to stand up and embrace Linux, come out with
> ANY hardware support and most of the communities time was spend trying to
> reverse engineer drivers. Now today we have a number of vendors that support
> Linux and ship drivers, most users can seamlessly install Linux and we have
> Nokia that has embraced Linux, and given us these wonderful toys, tools,
> whatever you want to call them.
>
> So the worst case here; Nokia drops out of the Linux market, or reduces
> their support for older hardware platforms.
>
> Since the software is open source,

except for the close-source binary-blob drivers that drive the
proprietary chips.

-- hendrik

> the hardware seems to be well documented,
> the community knows how to write applications, hack the core O/S or UI, we
> just end up going back in time a few years to the days where we had to patch
> source ourselves, and chose what applications we want to install; until
> someone re-writes the install process and we get back to a fully automated
> install.
>
> All we lose is a bit of time, we don't lose the hardware.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Denis
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:53 AM, Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:51 AM, Quim Gil wrote:
> >
> > > About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before Nokia
> > > publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
> > > your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
> > > edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
> > > software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
> > > users are going to benefit from this.
> >
> >
> > Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
> > apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are
> > pretty important.
> >
> >
> > [1]https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3470
> >
> > --
> > Ryan Abel
> > Maemo Community Council chair
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------
> sik vis paw kem, para bellum
> --------------------------------------
> oderint dum metuant
> --------------------------------------
> "Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
> be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
> women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC

> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

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Hendrik,

I stand corrected about the blobs.

However, is my point still valid?

Thanks,

Denis

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 9:45 AM, <hendrik@topoi.pooq.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 09:11:19AM -0600, Denis Dimick wrote:
> > Ryan,
> >
> > First off I'd like to thank you and the other members of the Maemo
> community
> > council for devoting time to Maemo, we all are busy in this day and time,
> > and I'm grateful there are people willing to stand up and lead this
> > community.
> >
> > Last night I was thinking about the issue of Nokia dropping support for
> > various hardware platforms, I'm speaking of in the future also, and I
> > started to think about the early days of Linux 15 years ago. There was
> not
> > any company that was willing to stand up and embrace Linux, come out with
> > ANY hardware support and most of the communities time was spend trying to
> > reverse engineer drivers. Now today we have a number of vendors that
> support
> > Linux and ship drivers, most users can seamlessly install Linux and we
> have
> > Nokia that has embraced Linux, and given us these wonderful toys, tools,
> > whatever you want to call them.
> >
> > So the worst case here; Nokia drops out of the Linux market, or reduces
> > their support for older hardware platforms.
> >
> > Since the software is open source,
>
> except for the close-source binary-blob drivers that drive the
> proprietary chips.
>
> -- hendrik
>
> > the hardware seems to be well documented,
> > the community knows how to write applications, hack the core O/S or UI,
> we
> > just end up going back in time a few years to the days where we had to
> patch
> > source ourselves, and chose what applications we want to install; until
> > someone re-writes the install process and we get back to a fully
> automated
> > install.
> >
> > All we lose is a bit of time, we don't lose the hardware.
> >
> > Just my thoughts,
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 2:53 AM, Ryan Abel <rabelg5@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:51 AM, Quim Gil wrote:
> > >
> > > > About the rest of the thread, how useful is it to discuss before
> Nokia
> > > > publishes the maemo 5 API and announces a product shipping it? Enjoy
> > > > your current devices! Fremantle is not even in alpha. The N810 WiMAX
> > > > edition just started the sales few days ago (running the very same
> > > > software inside). No matter what happens with Fremantle the N800/N810
> > > > users are going to benefit from this.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, when Nokia is done with Diablo to the point that they wont even
> > > apply a simple patch like this[1], then I'd say future plans are
> > > pretty important.
> > >
> > >
> > > [1]https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3470
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan Abel
> > > Maemo Community Council chair
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > maemo-users mailing list
> > > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------
> > sik vis paw kem, para bellum
> > --------------------------------------
> > oderint dum metuant
> > --------------------------------------
> > "Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There
> won't
> > be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
> > women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>



--
--------------------------------------
sik vis paw kem, para bellum
--------------------------------------
oderint dum metuant
--------------------------------------
"Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't
be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our
women and breed a hardier race!" -LT. GEN. LEWIS "CHESTY" PULLER, USMC

On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:45 AM, hendrik@topoi.pooq.com wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 09:11:19AM -0600, Denis Dimick wrote:
>
>> So the worst case here; Nokia drops out of the Linux market, or
>> reduces
>> their support for older hardware platforms.
>>
>> Since the software is open source,
>
> except for the close-source binary-blob drivers that drive the
> proprietary chips.


Yes, I think the correct approach is for not necessarily for Nokia to
actively maintain releases for old hardware all the way back to the
beginning, but to remove as many blockers as possible to the community
maintaining releases for old hardware. An open source wifi driver for
the N8x0 removed a huge blocker towards community support for this
generation of hardware, as it means we can update the kernel without
relying on getting updated binary blobs.

This discussion has been had many times before, though, so I suggest
anybody interested visit the mailing list archives.

--
Ryan Abel
Maemo Community Council chair

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En/na Ryan Abel ha escrit:
> On Oct 28, 2008, at 4:03 PM, Luca Olivetti wrote:
>
>> El Tue, 28 Oct 2008 19:35:17 +0000
>> "gary liquid" <liquid@gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>>> Shall we expect Nokia to simply cease development work and stop
>>> everything because they have users of a current generation who can't
>>> use the newer faster better way of doing something?
>>> Should Sony have remained at the playstation1 level because they had
>>> a lot of owners?
>>
>> I can run the latest linux distribution on an almost 10 years old
>> computer, and I assure you that the distro
>> maker didn't stand still to cater for me. It's obviously slower than a
>> new computer but it's quite useable, I just turn off the most demanding
>> desktop effects and don't use it for 3d animation. Heck, I could even
>> use lxde instead of kde4 if I really cared about its slowness.
>> If I buy, say, a netbook, I'll lose the pocketability of the tablet
>> (and that's quite an important factor), but I know that 10 years from
>> now I'll probably be able to use it (if it lasts, which I doubt, since
>> most electronics nowadays are made to use and throw away in a matter of
>> months, yes, including the tablets) with the latest and greatest.
>
> This is a totally bogus analogy.

No, that's only partially bogus ;-)

I do understand the differences and I don't expect nokia to support my
device forever. I hope, now that at least the wifi is "open", that I can
just install debian, (even though it's not my distribution of choice is
the only one I know with an armel branch) or a community supported maemo
when nokia decides to completely abandon the n8x0, or maybe I will just
use it as it is while it lasts.
It's not that, say, epox is supplying me the latest linux distro anyway.
I was just pointing out that it's not necessary to "cease development
work and stop everything" to maintain compatibility with an older device.
It doesn't seems that linux stopped development, yet it can support a
great number of devices old and new and it can run on a low end router
and on a supercomputer.

Bye
--
Luca

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On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 09:54:04AM +0100, Luca Olivetti wrote:
>
> I do understand the differences and I don't expect nokia to support my
> device forever. I hope, now that at least the wifi is "open", that I can
> just install debian, (even though it's not my distribution of choice is
> the only one I know with an armel branch)

Rumour has it that someone has installed the Ubuntu userspace in a
chroot on top of the maemo kernel.
Runour further says that Ubuntu is working on getting ubuntu to run on
the Nokia tablets.

Of course Ubuntu is closely related to Debian.

-- hendrik
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