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Java on the 770
Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia)
to integrate it into the firmware?
People would be glad even without the proprietary Jazelle extensions.
And it would open the 770 to many more applications.

Kindest regards,
Victor
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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
On Monday 13 November 2006 20:45, Victor Toni wrote:
> Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia)
> to integrate it into the firmware?
> People would be glad even without the proprietary Jazelle extensions.

Speaking of which, is this recent announcement any reason that we might
finally get details on those? Or is ARM Ltd. going to continue to be asinine
(IMHO) on that?

> And it would open the 770 to many more applications.
>
> Kindest regards,
> Victor
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--
Andrew Barr

Now playing: Sting - Jeremiah Blues (Part 1)
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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
Unfortunately it doesn't seems so as the Jazelle-related code (/src/
vm/cpu/arm/jazelle) has been removed from the PhoneME Feature
release. Maybe Sun could be convinced to resolve this issue with ARM
as they always points at Sun as being the source to the non-
disclosure policy due to some patent issue.

I find it completely ridiculous to have an undocumented instruction
set on a generally available CPU, which I have told ARM at any given
occasion. However, they haven't really been ready to see it from that
point of view.

/Jesper

On 14. Nov 2006, at 02:50, Andrew Barr wrote:

> On Monday 13 November 2006 20:45, Victor Toni wrote:
>> Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from
>> Nokia)
>> to integrate it into the firmware?
>> People would be glad even without the proprietary Jazelle extensions.
>
> Speaking of which, is this recent announcement any reason that we
> might
> finally get details on those? Or is ARM Ltd. going to continue to
> be asinine
> (IMHO) on that?
>
>> And it would open the 770 to many more applications.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>> Victor
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-developers mailing list
>> maemo-developers@maemo.org
>> https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
>
> --
> Andrew Barr
>
> Now playing: Sting - Jeremiah Blues (Part 1)
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developers@maemo.org
> https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers

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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 09:47 +0100, Jesper Zuschlag wrote:
> Unfortunately it doesn't seems so as the Jazelle-related code (/src/
> vm/cpu/arm/jazelle) has been removed from the PhoneME Feature
> release. Maybe Sun could be convinced to resolve this issue with ARM
> as they always points at Sun as being the source to the non-
> disclosure policy due to some patent issue.
>
> I find it completely ridiculous to have an undocumented instruction
> set on a generally available CPU, which I have told ARM at any given
> occasion. However, they haven't really been ready to see it from that
> point of view.

>From a business perspective, I suspect that Sun is more interested in
keeping this private as it is a way for them to extract licenses from
the embedded guys and this represents quite a bit of money.

Mathieu
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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
Mathieu Lacage wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 09:47 +0100, Jesper Zuschlag wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately it doesn't seems so as the Jazelle-related code (/src/
>> vm/cpu/arm/jazelle) has been removed from the PhoneME Feature
>> release. Maybe Sun could be convinced to resolve this issue with ARM
>> as they always points at Sun as being the source to the non-
>> disclosure policy due to some patent issue.
>>
>> I find it completely ridiculous to have an undocumented instruction
>> set on a generally available CPU, which I have told ARM at any given
>> occasion. However, they haven't really been ready to see it from that
>> point of view.
>>
>
> >From a business perspective, I suspect that Sun is more interested in
> keeping this private as it is a way for them to extract licenses from
> the embedded guys and this represents quite a bit of money.
>
> Mathieu
>
Seems more likely to me that Sun can't give away code that they have
only licensed from ARM.
As stupid as it may be, Jazelle specifications are proprietary to ARM
and ARM is probably the one that would object to Sun releasing
jazelle-related code.
You'd think a hardware manufacturer would want people to be able to
actually use the hardware they purchase.

If we want Jazelle to work on the 770 it's up to nokia to negotiate with
ARM. Thus far we have seen very little interest from Nokia in bringing a
JVM to the 770.

Luis



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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
Actually, from what I have been told by several ARM representatives
its the other way around. Something in the Jazelle architecture is
covered by one or more Sun patents, which means that ARM cannot
disclose the architectural details to 3rd parties that isn't Sun-
licensees.
I believe that in view of the recent open-sourcing of Java, Sun and
ARM should sit together and solve this issue so that we can use the
full potential of our devices. I find this whole situation ridiculously.

/Jesper

On 16. Nov 2006, at 06:29, Luis Montes wrote:

> Mathieu Lacage wrote:
>> On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 09:47 +0100, Jesper Zuschlag wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately it doesn't seems so as the Jazelle-related code (/
>>> src/ vm/cpu/arm/jazelle) has been removed from the PhoneME
>>> Feature release. Maybe Sun could be convinced to resolve this
>>> issue with ARM as they always points at Sun as being the source
>>> to the non- disclosure policy due to some patent issue.
>>>
>>> I find it completely ridiculous to have an undocumented
>>> instruction set on a generally available CPU, which I have told
>>> ARM at any given occasion. However, they haven't really been
>>> ready to see it from that point of view.
>>>
>>
>> >From a business perspective, I suspect that Sun is more
>> interested in
>> keeping this private as it is a way for them to extract licenses from
>> the embedded guys and this represents quite a bit of money.
>>
>> Mathieu
>>
> Seems more likely to me that Sun can't give away code that they
> have only licensed from ARM.
> As stupid as it may be, Jazelle specifications are proprietary to
> ARM and ARM is probably the one that would object to Sun releasing
> jazelle-related code.
> You'd think a hardware manufacturer would want people to be able to
> actually use the hardware they purchase.
>
> If we want Jazelle to work on the 770 it's up to nokia to negotiate
> with ARM. Thus far we have seen very little interest from Nokia in
> bringing a JVM to the 770.
>
> Luis
>
>
>

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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
2006/11/16, Jesper Zuschlag <jesper@zuschlag.dk>:
> Actually, from what I have been told by several ARM representatives
> its the other way around.

It's funny, because Sun is insisting; from:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6857451192.html

Eric Chu, senior director for the mobile and embedded market at Sun, says:
"We won't be able to put everything out there [under the GPL]. For
example, in our commercial product, we have integration with Jazelle.
Obviously, we cannot put that code into open source. So in the open
source version, we will take out some of the pieces that have third
party IP, that we don't have the right to open source. Whereas with
the commercial product, in some cases, we already have some of those
commercial relationships in place that allow us to include those
pieces."

>Something in the Jazelle architecture is
> covered by one or more Sun patents, which means that ARM cannot
> disclose the architectural details to 3rd parties that isn't Sun-
> licensees.
> I believe that in view of the recent open-sourcing of Java, Sun and
> ARM should sit together and solve this issue so that we can use the
> full potential of our devices. I find this whole situation ridiculously.
>
> /Jesper
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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
ARM has a feedback form on their site. I just confirmed with them that
they have no interest in giving out specifications to their Jazelle
technology.
Their only suggestion was that Nokia do something to get a jazelle JVM
on the 770.

Sun is not the problem here.

Luis


Roberto Resoli wrote:
> 2006/11/16, Jesper Zuschlag <jesper@zuschlag.dk>:
>> Actually, from what I have been told by several ARM representatives
>> its the other way around.
>
> It's funny, because Sun is insisting; from:
> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6857451192.html
>
> Eric Chu, senior director for the mobile and embedded market at Sun,
> says:
> "We won't be able to put everything out there [under the GPL]. For
> example, in our commercial product, we have integration with Jazelle.
> Obviously, we cannot put that code into open source. So in the open
> source version, we will take out some of the pieces that have third
> party IP, that we don't have the right to open source. Whereas with
> the commercial product, in some cases, we already have some of those
> commercial relationships in place that allow us to include those
> pieces."
>
>> Something in the Jazelle architecture is
>> covered by one or more Sun patents, which means that ARM cannot
>> disclose the architectural details to 3rd parties that isn't Sun-
>> licensees.
>> I believe that in view of the recent open-sourcing of Java, Sun and
>> ARM should sit together and solve this issue so that we can use the
>> full potential of our devices. I find this whole situation ridiculously.
>>
>> /Jesper
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developers@maemo.org
> https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
>

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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
Furthermore I guess we would not really need Jazelle to archieve good
performance. As far as I know Sun will release its ARM JIT also under
GPL which should be enough to build a high-performance CDC JVM for the
770.

lg Clemens

2006/11/21, Luis Montes <monteslu@cox.net>:
> ARM has a feedback form on their site. I just confirmed with them that
> they have no interest in giving out specifications to their Jazelle
> technology.
> Their only suggestion was that Nokia do something to get a jazelle JVM
> on the 770.
>
> Sun is not the problem here.
>
> Luis
>
>
> Roberto Resoli wrote:
> > 2006/11/16, Jesper Zuschlag <jesper@zuschlag.dk>:
> >> Actually, from what I have been told by several ARM representatives
> >> its the other way around.
> >
> > It's funny, because Sun is insisting; from:
> > http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6857451192.html
> >
> > Eric Chu, senior director for the mobile and embedded market at Sun,
> > says:
> > "We won't be able to put everything out there [under the GPL]. For
> > example, in our commercial product, we have integration with Jazelle.
> > Obviously, we cannot put that code into open source. So in the open
> > source version, we will take out some of the pieces that have third
> > party IP, that we don't have the right to open source. Whereas with
> > the commercial product, in some cases, we already have some of those
> > commercial relationships in place that allow us to include those
> > pieces."
> >
> >> Something in the Jazelle architecture is
> >> covered by one or more Sun patents, which means that ARM cannot
> >> disclose the architectural details to 3rd parties that isn't Sun-
> >> licensees.
> >> I believe that in view of the recent open-sourcing of Java, Sun and
> >> ARM should sit together and solve this issue so that we can use the
> >> full potential of our devices. I find this whole situation ridiculously.
> >>
> >> /Jesper
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-developers mailing list
> > maemo-developers@maemo.org
> > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 2006-11-22 at 15:57 +0100, Clemens Eisserer wrote:
> Furthermore I guess we would not really need Jazelle to archieve good
> performance. As far as I know Sun will release its ARM JIT also under
> GPL which should be enough to build a high-performance CDC JVM for the
> 770.

I'm an enthusiast of the Java language and was excited to read that Sun
started the phoneME community project [1] which centers around providing
the JavaME (Java Micro Edition) platform as source code compilable for
different target platforms (e.g. Linux/ARM). The 'phoneME advanced' [2]
subproject seems to be te candidate to be suited for the Nokia 770 as it
will provide the CDC [3] architecture. phoneME advanced has only one
realease yet (MR1) and starts developing on the next relase (MR2) in the
next month [5]. Documentation about how to build the Java runtime
environment and other needed parts (APIs from the different profiles) of
MR1 can be found under [6].

Maybe the Maemo SDK's ARM target in scratchbox could be used to build
'phoneME Advanced MR1 Software'. Unfortunately it seems to depend on an
available Java SE 1.4.2 on the build system to run some of the Java
Build Tools (see section 2.4.3 in [7]).

It would be nice if anybody could suggest how to proceed. After I
downloaded [8] into my scratchbox I was stuck.

Greets,
Jonek.

[1] https://phoneme.dev.java.net/
[2]
https://phoneme.dev.java.net/content/phoneme_platforms.html#phonemeadvanced
[3] http://java.sun.com/products/cdc/overview.html
[4] http://java.sun.com/javame/reference/apis.jsp#cdc
[5] https://phoneme.dev.java.net/content/phoneme_advanced_r2.html
[6] https://phoneme.dev.java.net/content/phoneme_advanced_guide.html
[7] http://java.sun.com/javame/reference/docs/cdc_build_system.pdf
[8]
http://download.java.net/mobileembedded/phoneme/advanced/phoneme_advanced-mr1-rel-src-b06-10_nov_2006.zip

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Re: Java on the 770 [ In reply to ]
Johannes Eickhold <jeickhold <at> gmx.de> writes:

> Maybe the Maemo SDK's ARM target in scratchbox could be used to build
> 'phoneME Advanced MR1 Software'. Unfortunately it seems to depend on an
> available Java SE 1.4.2 on the build system to run some of the Java
> Build Tools (see section 2.4.3 in [7]).
>
> It would be nice if anybody could suggest how to proceed. After I
> downloaded [8] into my scratchbox I was stuck.

Hallo Johannes,

you may want to grab JamVM, or Kaffe first, and use them to run the build tools,
provided they are packaged for the maemo.

cheers,
dalibor topic

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