Mailing List Archive

Sprint task: Refine the karma system
Hey,

My second task for this month is about the karma system[1], as discussed
'doers' should earn more karma than 'talkers'[2], the current system is very
broken IMO.

Here is a proposal based in previous discussion and proposed improvements:

Karma source: proposed_formula(current_formula) - notes

* Blog Posts:

score = 1 + (number of favorites for post) - (number of buries for post)
if (score < 1) then score = 1;
if (score > 10) then score = 10;

(score = 1 + (number of favorites for post) - (number of buries for post) -
Currently some blog posts generate 30+ karma, where a app generate a max of
42 karma.

* Discussion: 2 * sqrt(# posts) - (One point per post)

* Comments: 2 * sqrt(# comments) - (Two points per comment) - Don't know
who decide to give such relevance to comments :)

* Favorites: 0.25 per favorite and 0.25 per bury - Seems fair, but can
change

* Testing (new, need to be implemented): 0.5 for each thumb up/thumb down

*TMO 'gold posts'(new, need to be implemented): Posts with +40/+50 thanks
receive additional karma (10 ? 20 ?)

* Apps: each new app in Maemo5 extras earn 50p
if (votes > 300) then (300*stars)/6 + 50
if(stars>=3 && votes =<300) then (votes*stars)/6 + 50
if(stars <3) then 50

E.g:

1 Star app: 50p
2 Stars app: 50p
3 Stars app: Max. 200p
4 Stars app: Max. 250p
5 Stars app: Max. 300p

One idea is apply this rates only for Maemo5 software or implement karma
dropping when a new OS comes out, in order to give more relevance to active
developers.
If we realize that this changes aren't enough, we can later implement other
of the complementary solutions (download count, updates,...).

The current weights in TMO and Wiki seem fair, but if you don't think so,
please raise your opinion ;).

All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that the
karma should be simple to calculate.

[1] - http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma
[2] -
http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/developers_should_get_karma_based_on_the_relevance_of_their_software/


Best regards,
--
Valério Valério
Maemo Community Council Chair

http://www.valeriovalerio.org
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi Valerio,

Valerio Valerio wrote:
> Here is a proposal based in previous discussion and proposed improvements:
>
> Karma source: proposed_formula(current_formula) - notes

> * Discussion: 2 * sqrt(# posts) - (One point per post)

Discussion is mailing lists, I think, right? 2*sqrt(#posts) seems a bit
drastic - a mailing list post seems like a bigger contribution than a
comment, no?

> *TMO 'gold posts'(new, need to be implemented): Posts with +40/+50
> thanks receive additional karma (10 ? 20 ?)

Is this consistent with more karma for doers?

> * Apps: each new app in Maemo5 extras earn 50p
> if (votes > 300) then (300*stars)/6 + 50
> if(stars>=3 && votes =<300) then (votes*stars)/6 + 50
> if(stars <3) then 50

Do you have any stats on how karma might distribute after application?
This seems like an awful lot of karma, especially if you're "only"
responsible for porting several popular packages to Maemo. It's also a
very big jump from 2.xx stars to 3 stars. Shouldn't application related
karma be continuous with stars & votes? Why separate <3 stars & >=3
stars? Is the theory that "bad" applications don't deserve so much karma?

Cheers,
Dave.


--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Dave Neary <dneary@maemo.org> wrote:

> Hi Valerio,
>
> Valerio Valerio wrote:
> > Here is a proposal based in previous discussion and proposed
> improvements:
> >
> > Karma source: proposed_formula(current_formula) - notes
>
> > * Discussion: 2 * sqrt(# posts) - (One point per post)
>
> Discussion is mailing lists, I think, right? 2*sqrt(#posts) seems a bit
> drastic - a mailing list post seems like a bigger contribution than a
> comment, no?
>


Comments are normally feedback from users about a particular app, so in my
opinion the relevance is similar.


> > *TMO 'gold posts'(new, need to be implemented): Posts with +40/+50
> > thanks receive additional karma (10 ? 20 ?)
>
> Is this consistent with more karma for doers?
>

That's a proposed idea, these kind of posts are normally tutorials or very
informative, so a bit more relevance for them, just an idea as I said.

>
> > * Apps: each new app in Maemo5 extras earn 50p
> > if (votes > 300) then (300*stars)/6 + 50
> > if(stars>=3 && votes =<300) then (votes*stars)/6 + 50
> > if(stars <3) then 50
>
> Do you have any stats on how karma might distribute after application?
>

Apart from the example above, no, but none of the apps currently in the
maemo5 extras will get the maximum karma, since none has more than 300
votes.


> This seems like an awful lot of karma, especially if you're "only"
> responsible for porting several popular packages to Maemo.


Well, that's not a prefect system, we can implement something to give more
karma to native apps than to ports, but the intention is to easily calculate
karma.


> It's also a
> very big jump from 2.xx stars to 3 stars. Shouldn't application related
> karma be continuous with stars & votes? Why separate <3 stars & >=3
> stars? Is the theory that "bad" applications don't deserve so much karma?
>

The initial proposal was "Apps with 0 / 2,99 stars don't generate any karma
since these ratings are considered low / bad."
But I think they deserve some karma at least :).

If I didn't make it clear in my previous email, this values are not
definitive are only a suggestion, feel free to propose other
weights/formulas.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org


> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster
> Email: dneary@maemo.org
> Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that the
> karma should be simple to calculate.

Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).

The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who don't
develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that except
for download/spike counting.

Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's somewhat
better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly equal to
writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to include
bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no karma
for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get karma
only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.

Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty 'keeping
up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).

Regards,
Attila

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:

> On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> > All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that
> the
> > karma should be simple to calculate.
>
> Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
> apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
>

Ups, good catch, actually I have brainstorm here in my notes;

*Brainstorm - New proposal in 'Sandbox' (new, need to be implemented) - 5p
*Brainstorm - New solution in 'Sandbox' (new, need to be implemented) - 2p


>
> The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who don't
> develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that
> except
> for download/spike counting.
>
> Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
> somewhat
> better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly equal
> to
> writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
> include
> bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
> karma
> for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs).


Yup, each bug report generate 4p, I also thought about no karma for
duplicate/invalid reports, don't know if this is easy to implement.


> Yes, this can be tricky with projects
> handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get karma
> only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
>
> Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
> developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
> 'keeping
> up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
>

My intention is to give more relevance for each kind of contribution, it's
hard to make a perfect system, but we at least can improve the current one.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org

>
> Regards,
> Attila
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Valerio,

Thanks for putting this discussion up.

Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
have citizenship in this community.

There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.

Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
is highly developer-focal.

If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
extremely flawed.

If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
and neither does their karma rating.

My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
impossible to create.

I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?

Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.


On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
> On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
>> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that the
>> karma should be simple to calculate.
>
> Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
> apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
>
> The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who don't
> develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that except
> for download/spike counting.
>
> Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
> somewhat
> better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly equal
> to
> writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
> include
> bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
> karma
> for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
> handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get karma
> only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
>
> Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
> developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
> 'keeping
> up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
>
> Regards,
> Attila
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
-- Wm. Shakespeare
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
> ----- Original message -----
> From: "Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers" <crashanddie@gmail.com>
> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community@maemo.org>
> Subject: Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system
> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 00:33:07 +0000
>
>
> Valerio,
>
> Thanks for putting this discussion up.
>
> Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
> system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
> have citizenship in this community.
>
> There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
> even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
> redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
> trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
> off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
> threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.
>
> Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
> doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
> anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
> is highly developer-focal.
>
> If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
> removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
> his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
> formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
> dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
> will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
> indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
> real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
> it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
> extremely flawed.
>
> If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
> users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
> care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
> will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
> their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
> and neither does their karma rating.
>
> My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
> why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
> single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
> where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
> politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
> something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
> impossible to create.
>
> I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?
>
> Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.
>


And I continue to believe the concerns over karma abuse are significantly overblown.

Worries about cheating and abuse assume that such activities represent the norm or at the very least a dangerously high percentage of all activity. That defies probability and even human social behavior. I don't have proper data to perform an analysis here but I'm curious: what do karma opponents guess the abuse percentage to be?

Karma serves a valuable purpose: it's a value system that strives to put various contributing activities on a level playing field and make them highly visible. Of course it's not perfect, and that would be an irrational avenue to argue down anyway given that nothing can be.

Comparing a microcosm like maemo.org to real life is disingenuous as well, but if you want to go down that path one can make arguments that there ARE real-life rating systems, job salary being one. Educational grades are another, etc etc etc.

But while I don't quibble with the concept of karma, I can understand the distrust of some formulae and applications. I believe we need a karma system, and I also believe we need to monitor it for success as well as abuse... and continually refine it as needed.

Randy

>
> On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> >> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that the
> >> karma should be simple to calculate.
> >
> > Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
> > apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
> >
> > The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who don't
> > develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that except
> > for download/spike counting.
> >
> > Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
> > somewhat
> > better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly equal
> > to
> > writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
> > include
> > bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
> > karma
> > for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
> > handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get karma
> > only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
> >
> > Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
> > developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
> > 'keeping
> > up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
> >
> > Regards,
> > Attila
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-community mailing list
> > maemo-community@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
> -- Wm. Shakespeare
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Valerio Valerio <vdv100@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey,

Hi,

> My second task for this month is about the karma system[1], as discussed
> 'doers' should earn more karma than 'talkers'[2], the current system is very
> broken IMO.

First of all, I must confess I never cared much about the karma
system. But I've been noticing the importance being given to it, to
the point that it is becoming part of some important Maemo community
decisions (like who to give device discounts or IRC cloaks). It
somehow looks to me that it will never be perfect (and maybe not be
close to this), because it is difficult to distinguish whether some
contribution most "important" than other totally unrelated one. E.g.
is documentation more relevant/important/worthy than development? And
QA? And user support?

Another problem with karma is that by itself it looks like a "quality"
metric, but it in fact measures quantity most of the time (e.g. number
of blog posts, instead of their quality and relevance). It is possible
to make it a more quality related metric by taking human feedback into
consideration (like number of comments to the post, or ping backs, or
size of a forum thread), but it makes calculation more complex.

> Here is a proposal based in previous discussion and proposed improvements:
> [...]

I don't see any mentions of the Maemo Wiki, and IMHO it is where the
best community produced documentation should be.

Other things that even the old karma calculation did not contemplate:

* Development teams composed of more the one person. How to provide
karma for each one? Only for the uploader? Maybe create a "team karma"
?
* Developers of enabler applications (i.e. the ones not listed as user
applications but that allow to write them, e.g. libraries and
bindings). These applications currently are not being voted through
the QA, thus are not getting any thumbs up/down.

My (very own) two cents,
--
Anderson Lizardo
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Karma by itself does not mean much. We have seen, however, that in
the maemo.org world, it *can* translate into tangible/monetary
benefits (sponsorship to Summit, DDP, etc). Therefore, I think when
the time comes to sponsor community members to events, handing out
invites to Device Programs, etc; that there should be some thought
given outside of karma. Ideally, the criteria outside of karma should
be published in advance - similar to what Jaffa did for the 2009
Summit [1]. We have seen that the DDP raised a large stink over at
t.m.o when the threshold of 200 karma was the 'line in the sand'.
Albeit, there were efforts after the fact to reward people that
slipped through the cracks.

The proposed system does seem rather developer-focussed.
Understandably, they should receive a significant amount of karma for
their apps, downloads, stars, etc. I think if you are going to that
level with developers, then I would like to ask how to reward
non-developers who expend considerable effort in what you call
'talker' type activities such as tutorials and interviews? There is
no way that I know of, for instance, to measure how many times a
well-written FAQ on the wiki was read. Surely, that is an important
contribution that will go unrewarded in any karma system due to the
lack of any tracking.

I am not trying to be a pain - I am just trying to highlight
'community' type activities that fall under 'talking' that are really
more than that.

Question: Is this a topic that will go to referendum, or will it be
decided amongst the council?

Regards,

Sanjeev

[1] http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=307196&postcount=34

On 1/12/10, Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers <crashanddie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Valerio,
>
> Thanks for putting this discussion up.
>
> Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
> system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
> have citizenship in this community.
>
> There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
> even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
> redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
> trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
> off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
> threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.
>
> Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
> doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
> anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
> is highly developer-focal.
>
> If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
> removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
> his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
> formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
> dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
> will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
> indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
> real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
> it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
> extremely flawed.
>
> If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
> users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
> care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
> will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
> their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
> and neither does their karma rating.
>
> My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
> why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
> single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
> where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
> politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
> something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
> impossible to create.
>
> I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?
>
> Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.
>
>
> On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
>> On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
>>> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that
>>> the
>>> karma should be simple to calculate.
>>
>> Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
>> apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
>>
>> The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who don't
>> develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that
>> except
>> for download/spike counting.
>>
>> Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
>> somewhat
>> better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly equal
>> to
>> writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
>> include
>> bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
>> karma
>> for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
>> handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get karma
>> only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
>>
>> Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
>> developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
>> 'keeping
>> up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Attila
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-community mailing list
>> maemo-community@maemo.org
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
"Karma opponents" don't necessarily believe there is any kind of
abuse. This may have been a subdiscussion some time ago, however this
isn't the case now. If you are referring to the troll-making-karma
example I used, I'm only pointing out it is undeserved karma.

A few points about salary: most contracts will discourage or ban the
discussion of one's salary. Here karma would be used to make
decisions. Also salary is a means to an end: living. I don't see karma
as being nearly as important. Unless we will be able to buy Maemo
t-shirts using karma points? The next point is that salary
differentiates those who have done well for themselves and those who
haven't. My understanding up till now is that we are looking for a
system where very active talk contributors would have roughly the same
karma as devs (in an ideal world). Do we really want to metaphorically
say that we support socialism (far fetched, I know; I am not
criticising any political beliefs here, btw)?

Regarding grades, they are limited to one specific subset of people:
students. Which is fine by me. I don't mind some devs having a
specific "level" based on their contributions. Nor do I have an issue
with tmo users having their quota of posts/thanks displayed loud and
clear. The point I find doubtful is when we try to streamline such
metrics across widely and wildely different data sets:

You can create a very smart algorithm which measures apples, pears and
oranges to show which batch contains the best fruit, but in the end
you're still comparing apples and oranges.

I just find it surprising that we'd want a way to "judge" people
singlehandedly and immediately based on a number. I don't see Quim nor
Peter post, develop or blog furiously all year round, yet they still
are some of the most regarded and respected people around Maemo.



On 13/01/2010, Randall Arnold <texrat@ovi.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> ----- Original message -----
>> From: "Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers" <crashanddie@gmail.com>
>> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community@maemo.org>
>> Subject: Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 00:33:07 +0000
>>
>>
>> Valerio,
>>
>> Thanks for putting this discussion up.
>>
>> Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
>> system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
>> have citizenship in this community.
>>
>> There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
>> even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
>> redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
>> trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
>> off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
>> threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.
>>
>> Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
>> doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
>> anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
>> is highly developer-focal.
>>
>> If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
>> removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
>> his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
>> formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
>> dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
>> will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
>> indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
>> real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
>> it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
>> extremely flawed.
>>
>> If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
>> users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
>> care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
>> will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
>> their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
>> and neither does their karma rating.
>>
>> My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
>> why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
>> single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
>> where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
>> politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
>> something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
>> impossible to create.
>>
>> I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?
>>
>> Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.
>>
>
>
> And I continue to believe the concerns over karma abuse are significantly
> overblown.
>
> Worries about cheating and abuse assume that such activities represent the
> norm or at the very least a dangerously high percentage of all activity.
> That defies probability and even human social behavior. I don't have proper
> data to perform an analysis here but I'm curious: what do karma opponents
> guess the abuse percentage to be?
>
> Karma serves a valuable purpose: it's a value system that strives to put
> various contributing activities on a level playing field and make them
> highly visible. Of course it's not perfect, and that would be an irrational
> avenue to argue down anyway given that nothing can be.
>
> Comparing a microcosm like maemo.org to real life is disingenuous as well,
> but if you want to go down that path one can make arguments that there ARE
> real-life rating systems, job salary being one. Educational grades are
> another, etc etc etc.
>
> But while I don't quibble with the concept of karma, I can understand the
> distrust of some formulae and applications. I believe we need a karma
> system, and I also believe we need to monitor it for success as well as
> abuse... and continually refine it as needed.
>
> Randy
>
>>
>> On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
>> > On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
>> >> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that
>> >> the
>> >> karma should be simple to calculate.
>> >
>> > Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
>> > apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
>> >
>> > The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who
>> > don't
>> > develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that
>> > except
>> > for download/spike counting.
>> >
>> > Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
>> > somewhat
>> > better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly
>> > equal
>> > to
>> > writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
>> > include
>> > bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
>> > karma
>> > for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
>> > handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get
>> > karma
>> > only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
>> >
>> > Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
>> > developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
>> > 'keeping
>> > up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Attila
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > maemo-community mailing list
>> > maemo-community@maemo.org
>> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my mobile device
>>
>> question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
>> -- Wm. Shakespeare
>> _______________________________________________
>> maemo-community mailing list
>> maemo-community@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>>
>
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>
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
> ----- Original message -----
> From: "Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers" <crashanddie@gmail.com>
> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community@maemo.org>
> Subject: Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system
> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 01:31:52 +0000
>
>
> "Karma opponents" don't necessarily believe there is any kind of
> abuse. This may have been a subdiscussion some time ago, however this
> isn't the case now. If you are referring to the troll-making-karma
> example I used, I'm only pointing out it is undeserved karma.
>
> A few points about salary: most contracts will discourage or ban the
> discussion of one's salary. Here karma would be used to make
> decisions. Also salary is a means to an end: living. I don't see karma
> as being nearly as important. Unless we will be able to buy Maemo
> t-shirts using karma points? The next point is that salary
> differentiates those who have done well for themselves and those who
> haven't. My understanding up till now is that we are looking for a
> system where very active talk contributors would have roughly the same
> karma as devs (in an ideal world). Do we really want to metaphorically
> say that we support socialism (far fetched, I know; I am not
> criticising any political beliefs here, btw)?
>
> Regarding grades, they are limited to one specific subset of people:
> students. Which is fine by me. I don't mind some devs having a
> specific "level" based on their contributions. Nor do I have an issue
> with tmo users having their quota of posts/thanks displayed loud and
> clear. The point I find doubtful is when we try to streamline such
> metrics across widely and wildely different data sets:
>
> You can create a very smart algorithm which measures apples, pears and
> oranges to show which batch contains the best fruit, but in the end
> you're still comparing apples and oranges.
>
> I just find it surprising that we'd want a way to "judge" people
> singlehandedly and immediately based on a number. I don't see Quim nor
> Peter post, develop or blog furiously all year round, yet they still
> are some of the most regarded and respected people around Maemo.
>

Sorry, Sebastian, that's just some very eloquent hair-splitting. We could spiral down that pointless trail email after email but at some point the bang for the buck evaporates. But again, the point I was making wasn't about "streamlining" data sets but finding parity. Yes, apples are not oranges but as you point out they ARE both fruit. A karma system with its numerous tentacles and algorithms attempts to rationalize disparate contributions and find some way of abstracting them the same way. Granted, we can't simply say that 1 orange = 2/3 of an apple-- but that's not what our karma system does, so a simplistic fruit analogy fails. Rather, if one were to say "it costs 2/3 as much to grow a single orange as it does a single apple" THEN we have a sort of parity. THAT is what we're working at.

Karma isn't so much about judging people as it is measuring their contributions. I think you and I can find agreement on certain details, but until I see better arguments against karma in principle I'll continue to see value.

"Better arguments" includes not just tearing down the status quo with personal opinions but in offering viable alternatives. So what are they? How do we ensure, for example, that the right people get loaned (or even free) devices for early development and testing? How do we pick the right people to represent the community at various industry and social events? If not some sort of karma system, then what is to be used for measurement?

Oh, and back to real life: in a workforce, we are rated against each other even when direct comparisons are invalid. I'm entering one such review process right now with my employer. It's flawed, but I'm stuck with it. At least in this case people are willing to entertain alternatives and improvements. ; )

Randy

>
>
> On 13/01/2010, Randall Arnold <texrat@ovi.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> ----- Original message -----
> >> From: "Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers" <crashanddie@gmail.com>
> >> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community@maemo.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system
> >> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 00:33:07 +0000
> >>
> >>
> >> Valerio,
> >>
> >> Thanks for putting this discussion up.
> >>
> >> Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
> >> system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
> >> have citizenship in this community.
> >>
> >> There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
> >> even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
> >> redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
> >> trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
> >> off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
> >> threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.
> >>
> >> Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
> >> doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
> >> anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
> >> is highly developer-focal.
> >>
> >> If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
> >> removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
> >> his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
> >> formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
> >> dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
> >> will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
> >> indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
> >> real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
> >> it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
> >> extremely flawed.
> >>
> >> If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
> >> users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
> >> care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
> >> will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
> >> their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
> >> and neither does their karma rating.
> >>
> >> My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
> >> why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
> >> single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
> >> where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
> >> politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
> >> something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
> >> impossible to create.
> >>
> >> I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?
> >>
> >> Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.
> >>
> >
> >
> > And I continue to believe the concerns over karma abuse are significantly
> > overblown.
> >
> > Worries about cheating and abuse assume that such activities represent the
> > norm or at the very least a dangerously high percentage of all activity.
> > That defies probability and even human social behavior. I don't have proper
> > data to perform an analysis here but I'm curious: what do karma opponents
> > guess the abuse percentage to be?
> >
> > Karma serves a valuable purpose: it's a value system that strives to put
> > various contributing activities on a level playing field and make them
> > highly visible. Of course it's not perfect, and that would be an irrational
> > avenue to argue down anyway given that nothing can be.
> >
> > Comparing a microcosm like maemo.org to real life is disingenuous as well,
> > but if you want to go down that path one can make arguments that there ARE
> > real-life rating systems, job salary being one. Educational grades are
> > another, etc etc etc.
> >
> > But while I don't quibble with the concept of karma, I can understand the
> > distrust of some formulae and applications. I believe we need a karma
> > system, and I also believe we need to monitor it for success as well as
> > abuse... and continually refine it as needed.
> >
> > Randy
> >
> >>
> >> On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> >> >> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that
> >> >> the
> >> >> karma should be simple to calculate.
> >> >
> >> > Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
> >> > apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
> >> >
> >> > The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who
> >> > don't
> >> > develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that
> >> > except
> >> > for download/spike counting.
> >> >
> >> > Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
> >> > somewhat
> >> > better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly
> >> > equal
> >> > to
> >> > writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
> >> > include
> >> > bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
> >> > karma
> >> > for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
> >> > handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get
> >> > karma
> >> > only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
> >> >
> >> > Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
> >> > developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
> >> > 'keeping
> >> > up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Attila
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > maemo-community mailing list
> >> > maemo-community@maemo.org
> >> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from my mobile device
> >>
> >> question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
> >> -- Wm. Shakespeare
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> maemo-community mailing list
> >> maemo-community@maemo.org
> >> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >>
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Ovi Store: Download apps, games, videos and more
> > http://store.ovi.com/?cid=ovistore-fw-bac-na-acq-na-ovimail-g0-na-2
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-community mailing list
> > maemo-community@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
> question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
> -- Wm. Shakespeare
> _______________________________________________
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> maemo-community@maemo.org
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Jan 12, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Dave Neary wrote:

> Valerio Valerio wrote:
>
>> *TMO 'gold posts'(new, need to be implemented): Posts with +40/+50
>> thanks receive additional karma (10 ? 20 ?)
>
> Is this consistent with more karma for doers?

Agreed, take my recent post outlining the karma changes which is
currently sitting with ~45 Thanks! It took me all of 2 minutes to type
up from information I had read from konttori on #maemo a few hours
before. The work of all of about 10 minutes all told and only "work"
insomuch as relaying information from one medium to another.

It's reasonably easy to get a lot of Thanks! on one for a relatively
small amount of effort. There's no need for additional bonuses beyond
the regular Thanks! calculation to factor in.
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Jan 12, 2010, at 7:33 PM, Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers wrote:

> Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
> system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
> have citizenship in this community.

Well, for me, I like it because I enjoy a little bit of fun
competition. timeless passed me in bugzilla karma recently and it
encouraged me to file a long slew of bugs that had been slowly
building up in my backlog. Bugs that would've festered there for a
while longer if not for the karma encouragement.

A karma system is never going to be perfect (heck, it's unlikely to
even be GOOD) at measuring useful contribution. Which is, of course,
why it shouldn't be used as the sole decider in any situation (that it
was used as the sole decider for the DDP program was very unfortunate,
although I can understand how much time it saved). However, despite
its perceived evils, it can and does encourage useful contribution.
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Jan 12, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Randall Arnold wrote:

> "Better arguments" includes not just tearing down the status quo
> with personal opinions but in offering viable alternatives. So what
> are they? How do we ensure, for example, that the right people get
> loaned (or even free) devices for early development and testing?
> How do we pick the right people to represent the community at
> various industry and social events? If not some sort of karma
> system, then what is to be used for measurement?

To that end, I think this community is growing past the point where we
can expect one person (Quim) or a group of people (the Council) to
have enough knowledge about the whole community to make judgements
like that like they may have been able to in the past.
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
> ----- Original message -----
> From: "Ryan Abel" <rabelg5@gmail.com>
> To: "List for community development" <maemo-community@maemo.org>
> Subject: Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system
> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:57:17 -0500
>
>
> On Jan 12, 2010, at 9:05 PM, Randall Arnold wrote:
>
> > "Better arguments" includes not just tearing down the status quo
> > with personal opinions but in offering viable alternatives. So
> > what are they? How do we ensure, for example, that the right
> > people get loaned (or even free) devices for early development and
> > testing? How do we pick the right people to represent the
> > community at various industry and social events? If not some sort
> > of karma system, then what is to be used for measurement?
>
> To that end, I think this community is growing past the point where
> we can expect one person (Quim) or a group of people (the Council)
> to have enough knowledge about the whole community to make
> judgements like that like they may have been able to in the past.

I wholeheartedly agree, although it's a scary thing to contemplate. It means identifying a new model to match current needs, and lately we seem to get wrapped around too many axles to construct or change ANYthing...

Which points back to karma: at some point we have to forget perfection and accept good enough. Too many conversations stall over goals that are too lofty rather than settling on attainable targets that can be refined over time.

Randy

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Valerio Valerio schrieb:
> [...]
> The current weights in TMO and Wiki seem fair, but if you don't think
> so, please raise your opinion ;).

How much karma wiki editors get? And for what kind of edits?

I personally think the wiki is a _much_ better place to save manuals,
howtos, knowledge about special topics or applications than in
talk.maemo.org threads.

But sure it's hard to get a value for "how much of a wiki page is made
by a single person" and how relevant is the entry of a single person.

One idea would be to have a voting system to identify good articles and
give "the author(s)" karma.

Ciao Uwe

--
Uwe Kaminski
http://internettabletblog.de
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 13 January 2010 04:42:44 Ryan Abel wrote:
> It's reasonably easy to get a lot of Thanks! on one for a relatively
> small amount of effort. There's no need for additional bonuses beyond
> the regular Thanks! calculation to factor in.

What the 'gold' TMO posts really miss is IMHO a search/filter option. I might
not have the time/willpower to read all threads (and number of replies is a
poor metric), but I sure would like to see, say, last weeks N+ thanks posts as
chances are the signal to noise is far better on those than on an average TMO
post.

Regards,
Attila

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Attila Csipa schrieb:
> On Wednesday 13 January 2010 04:42:44 Ryan Abel wrote:
>> It's reasonably easy to get a lot of Thanks! on one for a relatively
>> small amount of effort. There's no need for additional bonuses beyond
>> the regular Thanks! calculation to factor in.
>
> What the 'gold' TMO posts really miss is IMHO a search/filter option. I might
> not have the time/willpower to read all threads (and number of replies is a
> poor metric), but I sure would like to see, say, last weeks N+ thanks posts as
> chances are the signal to noise is far better on those than on an average TMO
> post.

For me a gold post is something where a good wiki article was made of or
influenced. If great postings would be always the base for good wiki
articles there would be no need to identify them using an extra filter. :)

So I agree with Ryan that there is no need for additional bonuses.

Ciao Uwe

--
Uwe Kaminski
http://internettabletblog.de
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Wednesday 13 January 2010 11:57:07 Uwe Kaminski wrote:
> For me a gold post is something where a good wiki article was made of or
> influenced. If great postings would be always the base for good wiki
> articles there would be no need to identify them using an extra filter. :)

Wiki and talk are very different mediums - I'm not at all sure that thanks-
magnets (good or bad) would always transfer that well to the wiki. From a
karma aspect it's also not perfect as you don't 'own' your wiki page.

> So I agree with Ryan that there is no need for additional bonuses.

I was not talking about bonuses :) While we are at it, though, there is
something I'd like to note - I don't take karma as a measure of invested
effort, but as measure of a result/usefulness of those efforts. Saying otherwise
is, to me, like saying qwerty12 should not get any karma for hacking as it's
just too easy for him to do that :)


Regards,
Attila



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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Jan 13, 2010, at 4:12 AM, Uwe Kaminski wrote:

> Valerio Valerio schrieb:
>> [...]
>> The current weights in TMO and Wiki seem fair, but if you don't
>> think so, please raise your opinion ;).
>
> How much karma wiki editors get? And for what kind of edits?

Not enough when compared to the other contribution methods.[1]


[1]http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/mediawiki_edits/
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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 3:27 AM, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:

> There is already a schism (IRC, the lists, TMO and FNO already feel like
> four different planets to me),
>


An example of this schism is that this discussion is going on in two places
at once.

In an attempt to bridge the gap, I'll ask people to post new responses to
this thread at talk.maemo.org, where there are some different voices
speaking out, including a new, wise contributor, RevdKathy:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=40329

Feel free to restate your positions over there for the record.

(I strongly believe that community-oriented discussions like this are better
suited to Talk rather than the mailing list.

No, that last statement was NOT an invitation to discuss the point in this
thread. I think I will start a new thread at t.m.o and link back to it in a
-community post.)

--
enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent
and imaginative person."
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

Ryan Abel wrote:
>> How much karma wiki editors get? And for what kind of edits?
>
> Not enough when compared to the other contribution methods.[1]
>
>
> [1]http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/mediawiki_edits/

To answer the second question, all edits are equal, but some edits are
more equal than others.

The measure is purely the number of edits, regardless of whether they're
one-liners or new 200-line pages. Sometimes article reduction, editing &
correction is more valuable than dumping raw content from elsewhere (for
example), so I'm quite happy to have that be the case.

As Ryan said, the top wiki editors don't get a lot of karma from it.
It's amusing to me that as a fairly irregular forum contributor but
frequent wiki editor that I have more karma from tmo thanks than from
wikiedits :)

Cheers,
Dave.

--
maemo.org docsmaster
Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Sanjeev (EIPI) <mobiletabletsblog@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Karma by itself does not mean much. We have seen, however, that in
> the maemo.org world, it *can* translate into tangible/monetary
> benefits (sponsorship to Summit, DDP, etc). Therefore, I think when
> the time comes to sponsor community members to events, handing out
> invites to Device Programs, etc; that there should be some thought
> given outside of karma. Ideally, the criteria outside of karma should
> be published in advance - similar to what Jaffa did for the 2009
> Summit [1]. We have seen that the DDP raised a large stink over at
> t.m.o when the threshold of 200 karma was the 'line in the sand'.
> Albeit, there were efforts after the fact to reward people that
> slipped through the cracks.
>
> The proposed system does seem rather developer-focussed.
> Understandably, they should receive a significant amount of karma for
> their apps, downloads, stars, etc. I think if you are going to that
> level with developers, then I would like to ask how to reward
> non-developers who expend considerable effort in what you call
> 'talker' type activities such as tutorials and interviews? There is
> no way that I know of, for instance, to measure how many times a
> well-written FAQ on the wiki was read. Surely, that is an important
> contribution that will go unrewarded in any karma system due to the
> lack of any tracking.
>

Well, good blog posts get 10p comparing to a application that start with 50p
seems fair for me.

I agree that wiki contributions should receive more karma, also to encourage
people that post tutorials at TMO to wikify them(TMO tutorials get lost over
time), but wiki edits are very easy to abuse, and some people do a lot of
small edits just because they like to write articles that way.

Does anyone have suggestion to improve wiki karma ?


>
> I am not trying to be a pain - I am just trying to highlight
> 'community' type activities that fall under 'talking' that are really
> more than that.
>
> Question: Is this a topic that will go to referendum, or will it be
> decided amongst the council?
>

We're trying to reach a consensus here, as I said we're very open to
suggestions, but don't think we need a referendum for this, but if the
community wants, we can do it.

Best regards,

--
Valério Valério

http://www.valeriovalerio.org


>
> Regards,
>
> Sanjeev
>
> [1] http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=307196&postcount=34
>
> On 1/12/10, Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers <crashanddie@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Valerio,
> >
> > Thanks for putting this discussion up.
> >
> > Now, I'm not a big supporter of karma at all. I believe it is a flawed
> > system which encourages cheating and ego-trips, and neither of those
> > have citizenship in this community.
> >
> > There is no moderation on the discussion lists, which means anyone who
> > even pollutes the lists receives karma. Same thing for tmo, a lot of
> > redundant discussions mean a lot of redundant karma. At this point,
> > trolling is the best, effortless way of amassing heaps of karma. Sure,
> > off-topic doesn't count anymore, but I have yet to see (non-spam)
> > threads be deleted instead of locked in most other fora.
> >
> > Rewarding app developers is a great and noble idea, however I honestly
> > doubt karma is the most appriopriate medium for it. More than
> > anything, I have to side with Dave and notice that this implementation
> > is highly developer-focal.
> >
> > If I were crazy enough, I would post the suggestion that karma be
> > removed as a whole. If someone is active on tmo, you can see this by
> > his number of posts, and the thanks ratio. If someone offers well
> > formulated and mature advice, it should ring with your own mind. If a
> > dev writes a new app every week, I hope the website and app manager
> > will allow to "Browse by developer", and maybe the dev's stats will
> > indicate he has contributed positively on a number of occasions. The
> > real important thing is that if the main argument *for* karma is that
> > it allows newcomers to *know* who is *good*, and this is also
> > extremely flawed.
> >
> > If there is a worry that false information may be spread by unsavy
> > users, then this is a useless worry; a waste of time. People don't
> > care about an unknown status on an unknown forum. They will care, and
> > will listen to any person who echoes their thoughts and resonates
> > their ideas. Whether that person is "true or false" doesn't matter,
> > and neither does their karma rating.
> >
> > My main issue is that there is no such thing as karma in real life, so
> > why have any in our community? There is no formal rating of every
> > single individual on the planet on a website like rottentomatoes,
> > where people can check if they should agree or listen to this
> > politician or this sportsman; why would our community rating have
> > something which is, by lack of better words and lack of proof
> > impossible to create.
> >
> > I like politician X, but how does he match up against the NFL Top 10?
> >
> > Thanks for reading, and apologies about the rant.
> >
> >
> > On 12/01/2010, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
> >> On Tuesday 12 January 2010 20:46:14 Valerio Valerio wrote:
> >>> All suggestions/improvements are welcome, but please keep in mind that
> >>> the
> >>> karma should be simple to calculate.
> >>
> >> Brainstorm seems to be missing (maybe the generic vote/comment score can
> >> apply, but surely proposals/solutions themselves are worth something ?).
> >>
> >> The current scoring scheme does not take into account developers who
> don't
> >> develop end-user software (like libraries). No idea how to honor that
> >> except
> >> for download/spike counting.
> >>
> >> Also, you don't mention bugs.maemo.org, with more karma for apps it's
> >> somewhat
> >> better (reporting 3-5 bugs, regardless of report quality was roughly
> equal
> >> to
> >> writing (!) an app). Anyhow, if possible, maybe it would make sense to
> >> include
> >> bug status (i.e. karma for developers fixing the bugs in question, or no
> >> karma
> >> for duplicate, invalid, etc bugs). Yes, this can be tricky with projects
> >> handling their own bugs, but then again, it's the same now - you get
> karma
> >> only for reporting bugs on projects in b.m.o.
> >>
> >> Overall, I feel maybe the new proposal is noticeably tilted towards
> >> developers, non-dev community members will very likely have difficulty
> >> 'keeping
> >> up' with dev karma (which may or may not be what you want).
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Attila
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> maemo-community mailing list
> >> maemo-community@maemo.org
> >> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> > question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
> > -- Wm. Shakespeare
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-community mailing list
> > maemo-community@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >
>
>
> --
> EIPI
> Mobile Tablets! Blog: http://mobiletablets.blogspot.com
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>
Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

Valerio Valerio wrote:
> I agree that wiki contributions should receive more karma, also to
> encourage people that post tutorials at TMO to wikify them(TMO tutorials
> get lost over time), but wiki edits are very easy to abuse, and some
> people do a lot of small edits just because they like to write articles
> that way.
>
> Does anyone have suggestion to improve wiki karma ?

Looking at the top wiki contributors, the top editors have between 400
and 2000 edits, giving between ~50 to ~90 karma with 2*sqrt(E).

Seems like boosting that to ~150 to ~270 as the range would be good - so
changing 2*sqrt(E) to 6*sqrt(E) sounds good to me.

Cheers,
Dave.

--
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Email: dneary@maemo.org
Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org

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Re: Sprint task: Refine the karma system [ In reply to ]
Hi,

Valerio Valerio schrieb:
> I agree that wiki contributions should receive more karma, also to
> encourage people that post tutorials at TMO to wikify them(TMO tutorials
> get lost over time), but wiki edits are very easy to abuse, and some
> people do a lot of small edits just because they like to write articles
> that way.
>
> Does anyone have suggestion to improve wiki karma ?

if not too hard to implement, it would be nice to get at the most one
"Point" per article a day. This would help at least to solve the
step-by-step creating problem.

In the long run it would be very helpful to mark articles as "well made"
and to give the editors (hard to decide who is an editor) of this
articles some extra karma. The decision which articles are well made
could be done in the same way as planet maemo or maemo.org/news: Thumbs
up or down /what also could bring some karma to these voters).

All in all it seems to be no easy how to handle wiki edits but I think
it it very important to do this because in my opinion the wiki should be
a knowledge base with the highest quality within the maemo community.

Ciao Uwe

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