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On 24 February 2010 11:21, Niels Breet <niels@maemo.org> wrote:

> Nokia will encourage people to upgrade to the latest release as much as
> possible and we expect people to switch to PR1.2 at a high rate.
>
> Please let me know what you think, we have to come to a consensus as soon
> as possible if we want to have this change included in PR1.2.
>

Off-topic question - would I be able to upgrade to PR1.2 if I'm still
missing PR1.1.1? For some strange reason I didn't receive that update OTA
and I don't feel like flashing my device.

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Hi Niels,

Am 24.02.2010 um 12:21 schrieb Niels Breet:

> - Maemo 5 PR1.2 will ship with Extras enabled by default but will use
> distribution: fremantle-1.2
> - 'older' devices will continue to fetch from distribution: fremantle
> - Autobuilder will be updated when PR1.2 is released and promotion will
> only happen to fremantle-1.2

I think that's a good idea. Separate builders an QA queues would bring little benefit but cause a lot of work and confusion.

Cheers,
Stephan
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Hi,

On 24 February 2010 12:21, Niels Breet <niels@maemo.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Maemo 5 PR1.2 seems to be a release with some large changes which are not
> backwards compatible with previous releases. Most visible change will be
> the inclusion of Qt4.6, but there will be some other smaller changes.

after all the main/official way to write applications for N900 is using C+Gtk.

Developers who are using Qt (both C++ and Python) know that are using
something still experimental (even if already so good).
There are pro/cons using Qt right now. Ok, we'll have to rebuild/adapt
our applications when PR 1.2 is out, but for sure we'll be ready for
Harmattan/MeeGo development :)

So, go on!

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On Wednesday 24 February 2010 12:29:02 Andrea Grandi wrote:
> Developers who are using Qt (both C++ and Python) know that are using
> something still experimental (even if already so good).

That is incorrect. Even though Nokia calls Qt 4.5.x 'community supported', it
is shipped with all N900 devices from day 1 and is used by applications in
both Extras and the Ovi store. It misses the 4.6 goodies, but it does work
and IS based on a stable release of Qt.

Regards,
Attila

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On Wednesday 24 February 2010 12:21:45 Niels Breet wrote:
>Please let me know what you think, we have to come to a consensus as soon
>as possible if we want to have this change included in PR1.2.

How will this PR1.2 change be reflected on the maemo.org dowloads section
(i.e. how will it be ensured that the user gets presented the correct
install-this link) ?

Second, is there a safety mechanism considered that will disallow inclusion
of 'the other' firmware's repository to prevent potential version-related
breakage ?

> This will effectively mean that the 'old' Extras will not get any updates.
> New versions of applications will go to fremantle-1.2 Extras. Extras-devel
> and Extras-testing will not be changed, as they are expected to run the
> latest and greatest anyway.

What happens to apps (especially those with Qt dependencies) _currently_ in
Extras, i.e., how will they get to the fremantle1.2 Extras repo ?

Regards,
Attila

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hi,

Niels Breet wrote:
> Maemo 5 PR1.2 seems to be a release with some large changes which are not
> backwards compatible with previous releases. Most visible change will be
> the inclusion of Qt4.6, but there will be some other smaller changes.

When you say "not backwards compatible", does that mean that
applications built with 1.0 or 1.1 will not work on 1.2? Or is it ABI
compatible, but adds new interfaces, so that applications built with 1.2
won't necessarily work on 1.1 or 1.0 (which is a different & less
serious issue in that if you don't use the new interfaces your
application should still work unchanged on the older releases)?

Cheers,
Dave.

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> On Wednesday 24 February 2010 12:21:45 Niels Breet wrote:
>
>> Please let me know what you think, we have to come to a consensus as
>> soon as possible if we want to have this change included in PR1.2.
>
> How will this PR1.2 change be reflected on the maemo.org dowloads section
> (i.e. how will it be ensured that the user gets presented the correct
> install-this link) ?

A different .install file can be offered based on your browser string.
>
> Second, is there a safety mechanism considered that will disallow
> inclusion of 'the other' firmware's repository to prevent potential
> version-related breakage ?
>

There is not a lot we can do there. If a user adds the repository on an
'old' device, some applications just won't install because dependencies
are missing.

>> This will effectively mean that the 'old' Extras will not get any
>> updates. New versions of applications will go to fremantle-1.2 Extras.
>> Extras-devel
>> and Extras-testing will not be changed, as they are expected to run the
>> latest and greatest anyway.
>
> What happens to apps (especially those with Qt dependencies) _currently_
> in Extras, i.e., how will they get to the fremantle1.2 Extras repo ?
>
The Qt apps are currently blocked from being promoted to prevent issues.
The fremantle-1.2 repository will probably need to be 'legacy' clean. Qt
4.5.3 is not available in Extras and will probably not be available on any
repository enabled by default on the device. This means that applications
depending on this, will not work.

Those applications need actual changes to work with Qt4.6 iirc.
>
> Regards,
> Attila
>

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I don't know whether this has been discussed before:

what is wrong with forcing users that have the necessary Internet access
to download applications from Extras, to also upgrade to
the lastest firmware, which is supposed to fix bugs anyway.
Why would anybody not upgrade the firmware?
Why is backwards compatibility necessary for Fremantle minor releases?

Enforcing the requirement could make our life so much easier.
We could have a package "maemo-extras" which enables the extras
repository and which always depends on the latest firmware version.
Or we could add the current firmware version to the dependencies of
packages build on autobuilder.
Users who don't want to upgrade would have to stick with the on-device
applications.

cheers

On 24.02.10 12:21, Niels Breet wrote:
> Maemo 5 PR1.2 seems to be a release with some large changes which are not
> backwards compatible with previous releases....
> - 'older' devices will continue to fetch from distribution: fremantle
> This will effectively mean that the 'old' Extras will not get any updates.
...
> Nokia will encourage people to upgrade to the latest release as much as
> possible and we expect people to switch to PR1.2 at a high rate.


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I would prefer if devs could get the PR1.2 update a week or so earlier than
the general release. This way most of the necessary updates from Qt 4.5 to
4.6 could be done before the general public gets the new firmware. Also the
normal 10 day quarantine should not apply to these case.

Thanks,

Sascha

Hallo!

>> What happens to apps (especially those with Qt dependencies) _currently_
>> in Extras, i.e., how will they get to the fremantle1.2 Extras repo ?

> The Qt apps are currently blocked from being promoted to prevent issues.
> The fremantle-1.2 repository will probably need to be 'legacy' clean. Qt
> 4.5.3 is not available in Extras and will probably not be available on
any
> repository enabled by default on the device. This means that applications
> depending on this, will not work.
>
> Those applications need actual changes to work with Qt4.6 iirc.

No, what happens witht he packages currently ine extras?

* Will they automatically moved to fremantle-1.2 Extras? Sounds like this
is not possible.
* Will they automatically rebuild against then current SDK? f yes, how do
we find out it will work?
* Will fremantle-1.2 Extras be intially empty and we have to get all
packages in it again trhought he extras-testing process (Ooohhh, noooo,
that will take ages!)

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On Wednesday 24 February 2010 11:21:45 Niels Breet wrote:
> - Maemo 5 PR1.2 will ship with Extras enabled by default but will use
> distribution: fremantle-1.2
> - 'older' devices will continue to fetch from distribution: fremantle
> - Autobuilder will be updated when PR1.2 is released and promotion will
> only happen to fremantle-1.2

I can't say I like this. My personal view is that there will be a lot of
people running earlier software for quite a long time. How long do Nokia
believe it will be before 80% of new devices being sold in retail stores have
PR1.2 pre-installed? Can we keep track of stats showing how many people are
accessing the old repository?

However, as I don't have any evidence, I don't object to this approach. It at
least leaves the door open for the community to decide later that we do need
to update the fremantle extras, if necessary. Let's go with it for now.

We do need to have a plan for exactly when the changeovers will happen. When
will the autobuilder switch over and when will the promotion interface
change? Developers need to know so they know what they need to do if they
need to get a final update out to PR1.1 users.

For example, I have the GPE stuff sitting in extras-testing. I would really
like this to make it into the PR1.1 repository, even though the next update
will only make it to PR1.2.

Graham
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Hi,

On 24 February 2010 13:27, Sascha Mäkelä <sascha.makela@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would prefer if devs could get the PR1.2 update a week or so earlier than
> the general release. This way most of the necessary updates from Qt 4.5 to
> 4.6 could be done before the general public gets the new firmware. Also the
> normal 10 day quarantine should not apply to these case.

it would be a nice idea imho :)
I would like it too!

--
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Hello,

On Wednesday 24 of February 2010, Niels Breet wrote:
> - Maemo 5 PR1.2 will ship with Extras enabled by default but will use
> distribution: fremantle-1.2

IMHO, it may be better to have a distribution name like freemantle-2 just to
not cause confusions if/when PR1.3 (or other) is released. Having 1.2 in name
implies that it should be changed in every new PR.
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> hi,
>
> Niels Breet wrote:
>
>> Maemo 5 PR1.2 seems to be a release with some large changes which are
>> not backwards compatible with previous releases. Most visible change
>> will be the inclusion of Qt4.6, but there will be some other smaller
>> changes.
>
> When you say "not backwards compatible", does that mean that
> applications built with 1.0 or 1.1 will not work on 1.2?

That would be forward compatible in my book ;)

> Or is it ABI
> compatible, but adds new interfaces, so that applications built with 1.2
> won't necessarily work on 1.1 or 1.0 (which is a different & less serious
> issue in that if you don't use the new interfaces your application should
> still work unchanged on the older releases)?

Applications built on PR1.2 won't work on older versions. There are
exceptions, some applications might work, but those make this very
complicated.

>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
>
> --
> maemo.org docsmaster Email: dneary@maemo.org
> Jabber: bolsh@jabber.org
>

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> On Wednesday 24 February 2010 11:21:45 Niels Breet wrote:
>
>> - Maemo 5 PR1.2 will ship with Extras enabled by default but will use
>> distribution: fremantle-1.2
>> - 'older' devices will continue to fetch from distribution: fremantle
>> - Autobuilder will be updated when PR1.2 is released and promotion will
>> only happen to fremantle-1.2
>
> I can't say I like this. My personal view is that there will be a lot of
> people running earlier software for quite a long time. How long do
> Nokia
> believe it will be before 80% of new devices being sold in retail stores
> have PR1.2 pre-installed? Can we keep track of stats showing how many
> people are accessing the old repository?

Nokia retail figures -> ask Nokia. I'm pretty sure that getting that info
will not be easy.

I have the Extras downloads figures now. So we can check the percentages
after the switch.

> However, as I don't have any evidence, I don't object to this approach.
> It at
> least leaves the door open for the community to decide later that we do
> need to update the fremantle extras, if necessary. Let's go with it for
> now.
>
> We do need to have a plan for exactly when the changeovers will happen.
> When
> will the autobuilder switch over and when will the promotion interface
> change? Developers need to know so they know what they need to do if they
> need to get a final update out to PR1.1 users.

The same day as the SDK will be released seems to be a right time for me.
I don't know the exact release date of course. I'll make sure things are
prepared in advance, so the actual switch can be done relatively quickly.
>
> For example, I have the GPE stuff sitting in extras-testing. I would
> really like this to make it into the PR1.1 repository, even though the
> next update will only make it to PR1.2.

True, this is something we need to think of. It is clear for every
promotion happening before the PR1.2 release, but when we switch it will
go to fremantle-1.2 by default. (Unless we do something to prevent that)

>
> Graham


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> Hallo!
>
>
>>> What happens to apps (especially those with Qt dependencies)
>>> _currently_
>>> in Extras, i.e., how will they get to the fremantle1.2 Extras repo ?
>
>> The Qt apps are currently blocked from being promoted to prevent
>> issues. The fremantle-1.2 repository will probably need to be 'legacy'
>> clean. Qt 4.5.3 is not available in Extras and will probably not be
>> available on
> any
>> repository enabled by default on the device. This means that
>> applications depending on this, will not work.
>>
>> Those applications need actual changes to work with Qt4.6 iirc.
>>
>
> No, what happens witht he packages currently ine extras?
>

fremantle-1.2 will just be a copy with applications which don't work removed.

>
> * Will they automatically moved to fremantle-1.2 Extras?

All apps that are not touching the changed APIS are expected to work just
fine. Nokia people are running Extras apps on PR1.2 test images just fine.

>* Will they automatically rebuild against then current
> SDK? if yes, how do we find out it will work?

Testing shows not a lot of problems, only the obvious Qt apps.

> * Will fremantle-1.2 Extras be intially empty and
> we have to get all packages in it again trhought he extras-testing process
> (Ooohhh, noooo,
> that will take ages!)
>
No, don't worry.

> --
> Gruß...
> Tim
>

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> I would prefer if devs could get the PR1.2 update a week or so earlier
> than the general release. This way most of the necessary updates from Qt
> 4.5 to
> 4.6 could be done before the general public gets the new firmware.

It looks like there is a chance to get the SDK out before the actual
device OS update, but the discussion is still going on. I hope to have
more information on that later.

> Also
> the normal 10 day quarantine should not apply to these case.

I'm not sure if that is a good idea. The quarantine is there for a reason,
the switch between these Qt releases can actually introduce issues. If we
have the SDK in time, then the overlap will be minimal anyway.

> Thanks,
>
>
> Sascha

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On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 15:30, Niels Breet <niels@maemo.org> wrote:

> > Also
> > the normal 10 day quarantine should not apply to these case.
>
> I'm not sure if that is a good idea. The quarantine is there for a reason,
> the switch between these Qt releases can actually introduce issues. If we
> have the SDK in time, then the overlap will be minimal anyway.
>

I was under the impression that for many Qt apps a simple repackaging will
do the trick. If this is the case, would it not make sense to make those
updates available? After all, before the updates are released to Extras,
many users are going to have Qt apps that won't work on their N900. Surely
we want to correct that as soon as possible. And what about existing Qt 4.5
based apps in Extras? Should the be demoted when PR1.2 is released?

About that SDK. Could we have something on MADDE too?

Cheers,

Sascha

On Wednesday 24 February 2010 13:20:40 Thomas Tanner wrote:
> Why would anybody not upgrade the firmware?
> Why is backwards compatibility necessary for Fremantle minor releases?
> Enforcing the requirement could make our life so much easier.

There can be a number of reasons, ranging from various regressions (like
sticking to 42-11 because of WiFi issues in 51-1), policies (if it ain't
broken, don't fix it, not all bugs affect all people), cost/stability (I
might not want to upgrade when roaming) or simply firmware non-availability
(firmwares are not rolled out simultaneously for all countries, ask UK
folks :). Forced upgrades are usually a last-resort measure, done only if
there is a legal reason (like compliance with some regulations, maybe things
related to emergency calls, etc).

Regards,
Attila
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On 24.02.10 15:18, Attila Csipa wrote:
> On Wednesday 24 February 2010 13:20:40 Thomas Tanner wrote:
>> Why would anybody not upgrade the firmware?
>> Why is backwards compatibility necessary for Fremantle minor releases?
>> Enforcing the requirement could make our life so much easier.
> There can be a number of reasons, ranging from various regressions (like
> sticking to 42-11 because of WiFi issues in 51-1), policies (if it ain't
> broken, don't fix it, not all bugs affect all people), cost/stability (I
> might not want to upgrade when roaming) or simply firmware non-availability
> (firmwares are not rolled out simultaneously for all countries, ask UK
> folks :). Forced upgrades are usually a last-resort measure, done only if
> there is a legal reason (like compliance with some regulations, maybe things
> related to emergency calls, etc).

Forced upgrades of some components for installation of a new package is
standard practice for all package management systems (keyword version
dependencies).
I think the main problem is that the mp-fremantle-pr packages
hardcodes the exact version of all PR packages instead of specifying the
minimum version. If a user could selectively upgrade a core package
without conflicting with mp-fremantle-pr they would not be forced to
completely upgrade the firmware for new extras apps.
(BTW, the broken dependency specification in the PR also makes it
impossible to remove unnecessary language packs)

In a (Debian based) distribution the proper way to handle such conflicts
would be to specify the minimum required version in each extras apps
(e.g. qt4.5) and to switch to a new package name if the new package is
no longer backwards compatible (qt4.6).

If it not possible to install both qt4.5 and qt4.6 due to space
constraints the user should have the option to either deinstall old
qt4.5 apps or wait until all his extras apps are upgraded 4.6.

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>> How will this PR1.2 change be reflected on the maemo.org dowloads section
>> (i.e. how will it be ensured that the user gets presented the correct
>> install-this link) ?
>
>A different .install file can be offered based on your browser string.

How are you going to make sure you catch all of them ? For MicroB, okay, but
Firefox, Tear, Midori, whatnot ? Does not really sound like a foolprof
solution (you also need to sync with Maemo Select, and just hope that there
are not too many links floating around) :(

>> Second, is there a safety mechanism considered that will disallow
>> inclusion of 'the other' firmware's repository to prevent potential
>> version-related breakage ?
>
>There is not a lot we can do there. If a user adds the repository on an
>'old' device, some applications just won't install because dependencies
>are missing.

There are a few more troublesome scenarios that can present themselves - like
if someone adds the old repo, and has a repo-refresh issue with the new one
afterwards (I often have this problem with extras-testing and extras-devel).
In both this and the scenario you mention, H-A-M/apt will prevent downgrades,
luckily, but it's easy to cut off your own upgrade path if you DO manage to
install something from the wrong repo.

>> What happens to apps (especially those with Qt dependencies) _currently_
>> in Extras, i.e., how will they get to the fremantle1.2 Extras repo ?
>>
>The Qt apps are currently blocked from being promoted to prevent issues.

It would be helpful if this would be visible from the testing page, too (not
just for 4.6). I have several Qt4.5 dependent packages in the QA queue
nearing required quarantine delay fulfillment. It's just a waste of tester
and developer time then.

>The fremantle-1.2 repository will probably need to be 'legacy' clean. Qt
>4.5.3 is not available in Extras and will probably not be available on any
>repository enabled by default on the device. This means that applications
>depending on this, will not work.
>
>Those applications need actual changes to work with Qt4.6 iirc.

Okay, so we basically ditch Qt4.5-compiled applications currently in Extras.
Is the Ovi team aware of this as there are quite a few Qt 4.5 applications in
Ovi repositories,too ? Will they get their fremantle1.2 repo, too (I know,
ask them -> wait for a meaningful response so long that it becomes moot :) )
or will they hope Qt ABI compatibility gets them through ? And if you think
Ovi has no bearing on Extras downloads, take into consideration Firefox is in
Ovi, so if browser string based info is used, it will bite you if it's not
handled in a timely manner :)

Regards,
Attila
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Hi,

Niels Breet wrote:
>> Niels Breet wrote:
>>> Maemo 5 PR1.2 seems to be a release with some large changes which are
>>> not backwards compatible with previous releases. Most visible change
>>> will be the inclusion of Qt4.6, but there will be some other smaller
>>> changes.
>> When you say "not backwards compatible", does that mean that
>> applications built with 1.0 or 1.1 will not work on 1.2?
>
> That would be forward compatible in my book ;)

Tomayto-tomahto.

backwards compatible usually means that new interfaces support old
applications. Windows 95 was backwards compatible with Windows 3.1, so
old .exes still ran unchanged. You didn't even have to recompile.

That's what I'm asking - will PR 1.0 packages & executables continue to
work on PR1.2?

>> Or is it ABI
>> compatible, but adds new interfaces, so that applications built with 1.2
>> won't necessarily work on 1.1 or 1.0 (which is a different & less serious
>> issue in that if you don't use the new interfaces your application should
>> still work unchanged on the older releases)?
>
> Applications built on PR1.2 won't work on older versions. There are
> exceptions, some applications might work, but those make this very
> complicated.

All applications? That seems unusual - especially since the GNOME
project (and thus a bunch of the libraries in the API) work very hard to
ensure API & ABI compatibility. If I compile, unchanged, an application
with the PR1.2 API which previously worked on PR1.0, I would expect the
new package to continue to work correctly. I would expect it to stop
working only after I started using interfaces not available in the old
platform.

Cheers,
Dave.

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Hi,

Sascha Mäkelä wrote:
> I was under the impression that for many Qt apps a simple repackaging
> will do the trick. If this is the case, would it not make sense to make
> those updates available? After all, before the updates are released to
> Extras, many users are going to have Qt apps that won't work on their
> N900. Surely we want to correct that as soon as possible. And what about
> existing Qt 4.5 based apps in Extras? Should the be demoted when PR1.2
> is released?

I know of at least one case where Maemo-specific changes were made in Qt
4.5 for Maemo and are no longer available in Qt 4.6 (related to Hildon
integration). So it is entirely possible that some apps which previously
compiled will not do so after the upgrade.

Cheers,
Dave.



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On 24 February 2010 14:18, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:

> simply firmware non-availability
> (firmwares are not rolled out simultaneously for all countries, ask UK
> folks :).
>

Me me me! I really wish to know "officially" why PR1.1.1 still hasn't been
rolled as OTA update for my device...

--
Dawid 'evad' Lorenz * http://adl.pl

null://signatures are for wimps