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On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:

> tab). Some PyQt users might find this scenario familiar, so I suggest we
> actually encourage to serve the fixes in bundles - that would also make
> testing easier, etc).

Apart from technical details, there is a strategic angle - we want a
single package that we can "trust" to be on most devices, but yet is
under community control. Right now, this is not something we have. We
can use this to push stuff out regardless of Nokia schedules, or lack
thereof. The 2 packages specified already are just the beginning ,
depending on the number of problems and especially fixes we end up
seeing.

"Community control" here means that while FN (Attila as the default
go-to guy ATM) will do the physical labor (on paid/unpaid time), we
understand maemo council to have the veto right to say that a
specified package should be added / removed from the csp dependency
list, and that this should not be seen as official Nokia activity in
any legally binding sense.

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On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, 19:01:22 GMT, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Apart from technical details, there is a strategic angle - we want a
> single package that we can "trust" to be on most devices, but yet is
> under community control.

Agreed - to an extent. With the Community SSU around the corner (once the "HAM ignores packages even though the new repo has a higher trust level than the Nokia one" problem is fixed), I don't think there's a need to address the *theoretical* future issue of other minor fixes.

A Qt fixes package, managed by the community (thanks to Attila), and we can ensure it is required as a dependency for QML/other Qt-using packages, seems like an appropriate solution.

Cheers,

Andrew

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Hi,

2010/12/16 Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org>:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, 19:01:22 GMT, Ville M. Vainio <vivainio@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Apart from technical details, there is a strategic angle - we want a
>> single package that we can "trust" to be on most devices, but yet is
>> under community control.
>
> Agreed - to an extent. With the Community SSU around the corner (once the "HAM ignores packages even though the new repo has a higher trust level than the Nokia one" problem is fixed), I don't think there's a need to address the *theoretical* future issue of other minor fixes.
>
> A Qt fixes package, managed by the community (thanks to Attila), and we can ensure it is required as a dependency for QML/other Qt-using packages, seems like an appropriate solution.

A hypothetical question: What if these community-introduces fixes
(which change the behaviour of Qt - even if for the better) somehow
collide with expected behaviour of the Qt libs on Maemo 5, e.g. from
closed source packages from Ovi or even from normal open source
packages in Extras? What if Ovi apps work around the issues in the
"official" Maemo 5 packages - will this have any bad side-effects when
the workarounds do not apply anymore?

Thanks,
Thomas
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On Thursday 16 December 2010 21:15:59 Thomas Perl wrote:
> A hypothetical question: What if these community-introduces fixes
> (which change the behaviour of Qt - even if for the better) somehow
> collide with expected behaviour of the Qt libs on Maemo 5, e.g. from
> closed source packages from Ovi or even from normal open source
> packages in Extras? What if Ovi apps work around the issues in the
> "official" Maemo 5 packages - will this have any bad side-effects when
> the workarounds do not apply anymore?

Regardles of Ovi, I don't think we'll be replacing Qt libs on a whim with
this, QAing a new Qt (esp if not a bugfix) release is not trivial. The
community fixes do not get installed by default, so 'default' Ovi compatibility
is kept. If we affect something in Extras, it's the same procedure as it would
be with a new PR -> let the author know, ask Niels to remove the old version,
etc. There are not that many apps in Ovi that I would be particularly worried,
but in case we cause breakage - well, that's a conflicts clause, just as it
would be for any app in Extras, and then the user can decide if he want the
stuff from Ovi or Extras. Still, in reality, I don't expect this scenario to
play out - I see the service pack as fixes and addons, so not quite deep and
extensive in scope as a SSU.

Best regards,
Attila Csipa
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On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 12:47, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:
>
>> PS. Are we OK with the name ? We can use csp or community-sp or
>> whatever for testing, but once it goes public, it will be very
>> difficult to change due to HAM behavior.
>
> Let's focus this on the Qt side; I see two options:
>
>  1) A meta-package, as Ville describes, which depends on the two packages.
>     This might live in 'user/' (TBD) and be called something like
>     "qt-community-fixes-1". I don't think this should be a general
>     "community hotfixes", because then it makes no sense for QML apps
>     to depend on it in general. However, the SSU could depend on it to
>     pull it in more widely.

I hate to say I told you so, but I'm still not happy with the name.
And now it's confusing users:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=936256#post936256

* mcsp is in "user/" and shows up as "Maemo Community Service Pack"
* It is unrelated to the CSSU, although might be included:
https://bugs.maemo.org/11825
* The Community SSU is going to be more user-facing than mcsp.

Please can you change the XB-Maemo-Display-Name to "Qt Hotfixes" as
soon as possible.

Thanks in advance,

Andrew

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On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:22 PM, Andrew Flegg <andrew@bleb.org> wrote:

> I hate to say I told you so, but I'm still not happy with the name.
> And now it's confusing users:
>
>    http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=936256#post936256
>
>  * mcsp is in "user/" and shows up as "Maemo Community Service Pack"

Right, it was moved to user/ recently to enable upgrades from h-a-m.

> Please can you change the XB-Maemo-Display-Name to "Qt Hotfixes" as
> soon as possible.

Makes sense to me. If we end up adding non-Qt stuff there, we can
change the display name.

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On Friday 04 February 2011 23:22:30 you wrote:
> * mcsp is in "user/" and shows up as "Maemo Community Service Pack"
> * It is unrelated to the CSSU, although might be included:
> https://bugs.maemo.org/11825
> * The Community SSU is going to be more user-facing than mcsp.
>
> Please can you change the XB-Maemo-Display-Name to "Qt Hotfixes" as
> soon as possible.

Sir-yes-sir ! :) I changed the description to a fairly discouraging one for
people who are playing with things they shouldn't. On a sort-of-related
matter, if we see this as 'Qt hotfixes' I would suggest we include
http://maemo.org/packages/view/qt4-homescreen-loader/ One downside is that we
already have a few applications depending on it in Extras but I would rather
have it in this metapackage and encourage maintainers to upload new versions
with a mcsp dependency then keep it half-orphaned as it is now.

Best regards,
Attila Csipa
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On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 12:29, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:
> On Friday 04 February 2011 23:22:30 you wrote:
>>
>> Please can you change the XB-Maemo-Display-Name to "Qt Hotfixes" as
>> soon as possible.
>
> Sir-yes-sir ! :)

Very good lieutenant :-)

> I changed the description to a fairly discouraging one for
> people who are playing with things they shouldn't. On a sort-of-related
> matter, if we see this as 'Qt hotfixes' I would suggest we include
> http://maemo.org/packages/view/qt4-homescreen-loader/ One downside is that we
> already have a few applications depending on it in Extras but I would rather
> have it in this metapackage and encourage maintainers to upload new versions
> with a mcsp dependency then keep it half-orphaned as it is now.

The apps which depend on qt4-homescreen-loader aren't depending on a
specific version, particularly?

Cheers,

Andrew

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On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Attila Csipa <maemo@csipa.in.rs> wrote:

> people who are playing with things they shouldn't. On a sort-of-related
> matter, if we see this as 'Qt hotfixes' I would suggest we include
> http://maemo.org/packages/view/qt4-homescreen-loader/ One downside is that we
> already have a few applications depending on it in Extras but I would rather
> have it in this metapackage and encourage maintainers to upload new versions
> with a mcsp dependency then keep it half-orphaned as it is now.

I am still divided on the matter of homescreen loader. It's an
entirely maemo5 dependent package, where a developer explicitly knows
that he wants to use the library (as opposed to just being a fix for
something that's broken).

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On Saturday 05 February 2011 15:13:10 you wrote:
> I am still divided on the matter of homescreen loader. It's an
> entirely maemo5 dependent package, where a developer explicitly knows
> that he wants to use the library (as opposed to just being a fix for
> something that's broken).

I understand that, but I think that's more of a philosophical debate - I would
say that as Maemo5 specific functionality it should have been integrated/be
part of the QtMaemo5 module in the first place. If I consider this omission as
a bug - as it should track Qt versions which it cannot unless it's pushed
through either Qt or mcsp, it's clear why I see it as a hotfix :) As said -
it's a question of viewpoint so I don't expect everyone to agree and that's
why I didn't include it in the first wave (was just looking for pros/cons).


Best regards,
Attila Csipa
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